Need Help Identifying What I Have

Hello, New guy here. I really hope I am in the right place to ask this as I see a sticky for kinda the same issue but its closed. I have tried searching and literally have spent hours researching this over several weeks, but I am still confused. IMO, I have a very unique problem though.

My issue is this:
When I got my CJ5, previous owner told me it was a 1970 but he wasnt sure. It's barn fresh and confusing the crap out of me. I am trying to identify the year of the jeep or what years it is made up of.

Problems:
1.) The Jeep has the 231 v6, from early research it seems the valve covers are angled, which would not make it a 225 v6. correct?
2.) The vin # is 8305017 369756, doesnt that signify a 225 v6 stock?

so if the engine was changed thats fine, but

3.) If the VIN shows a 66-71 CJ5 from it having a 225, it would not have the Jeep stamped on the Side right? (it does.)


Some other information on it:
It has a T14a transmission with D44/27 axles, A rear mount 15 gallon tank with fuel filler in the rear, a tailgate, steering has been modified so there is no clues there, the front crossmember on the frame has been notched to allow the mod. Also the master brake was on the firewall if that is any clue, not on the frame, but the body is off the frame and its not a pretty sight right now. If there is anything else I can provide let me know. I really appreciate the help in advance. I just want to get some clarification as I am now ordering parts and stressing out about parts fitting. I'll see if I can figure out how to post pictures.

 

Sounds right for a '70. All CJs have Jeep stamped into the side - why do you think that is wrong? The V6 will also have the V6 badges.

A 231 drops in as a replacement for the 225. It has been done a lot; Buick cars are a source for good used engines. You should look at the casting numbers on the engine for positive ID. Here's the document that we had on the old site earlycj5.com which was abandoned. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...WHqfCItmmyodkBA&bvm=bv.53537100,d.dmg&cad=rja

Regarding your brakes and steering, these Jeeps get modified a lot. Saginaw steering is common; suspended pedals not so popular, but it's done rather often.

Post some pics - and even though this is your second post, welcome from Boston.

 

From the VIN your jeep was built November or December 1970, which would make it a 1971 model year vehicle. originally 225 V6 from your VIN. Fuel tank under the rear floor, transmission and axles sound be correct for that vintage. Sounds to me like a 1971 CJ5 with a (possible) 231 swapped in, a saginaw steering conversion and someone installed a firewall mounted master cylinder (and swinging pedals).

 

Thanks for the replies! I read on a forum somewhere just the other day where someone else was trying to identify the year of a CJ5 that the jeep wasn't stamped on the side until late 75 and in 76. Then after looking at some pictures, I saw some that didn't have the stamp. I'm relieved to find out that is not true.


Here are some pictures:
















In these pictures we havn't gotten rid of all the wasp nests... All i got for right now. Thanks again for the great info, I have already ordered the lift, brake lines, fuel lines, fuel tank, and some other things. I hope the fuel lines I purchased go to the rear of the jeep if it had an under mount gas tank originally I might have bought the wrong lines...

 

What jumps out here - this is a '71 chassis with a '76 or later tub and windshield. The outriggers welded on to the frame appear to be an adaptation to fit the later body. You can tell this is a later body by the style of the Jeep script on the cowl, and by the design of the windshield, dash and floors.

In general, I would say just about all the parts from a '76 or later CJ are incompatible with a '70-71 CJ. When AMC bought Jeep, they introduced an upgraded version of te CJ for 1972, and made a complete redesign for 1976. So this is an unusual mix of parts - older chassis and newer body - that conventionally shouldn't work, but the PO (previous owner), with some effort, has made to work.

 

Interesting, I have definitely come to the right place it seems. I had a feeling something was a little off from all the research I have been doing. Now to figure out where I should go from here. Would you be able to offer me any advice on whether I should keep it this way or order a new tub that is more compatible with the chassis? The body mounts on the bottom of the tub are completely rusted away also. THANK YOU!

 

Well, a new steel tub will be very expensive, ca $3000. The tub you have looks to be in fairly good shape. The PO has made it work, it seems, with your existing chassis.

Show some pictures of the rusty body mounts. From here, the body looks to be in good shape. Apparently you are ready to weld on the frame (since you can't drive the Jeep without front and rear cross-members), and a little sheet metal repair should be straightforward. Floor and floor channel repairs are common, and the floors look pretty solid, from these pictures.

Just depends on what you want. If you want to use it like the PO did, and have a decent trail Jeep that looks pretty good, then this Jeep may suit you fine. A lot depends on how well the PO did the adaptation, and how much time and money you want to spend to make it the way you want it.

Regarding the stamping below the cowl, all CJs have some form of JEEP or Jeep raised letters from the factory. Replacement tubs (esp. fiberglass) and military Jeeps do not have the stamping. The style of stamping changes in 1972, from JEEP to Jeep, then the stamp moves lower in mid-74 (like what you have).

1954-1971 == "Early" - the original CJ-5 and CJ-6 design, 81" and 101" wheelbase. A Willys design, then owned by Kaiser in 1964, and AMC in 1970.
1972-1975 == "Intermediate" - basically the same design as early, with mechanical upgrades, stretched fenders and hood and a longer 84" or 104" wheelbase. A freshening-up of the CJ-5 by AMC.
1976-1983 == "Late" - a complete redesign of the CJ-5 by AMC. Wheelbase still 84" with the new 94" CJ-7 introduced. Everything is new and different compared to the early era, except for the overall size and exterior shell.

 

I don't have any great pictures of the rusted body mounts, here is what I have..


Pretty much how they all were.

As for the body itself, it is in good condition, and I was planning on doing all the body work myself. I already have my fathers 74 CJ5, which is strictly a trail jeep, so I was kinda wanting to make this one a little nicer, maybe like a part time trail jeep if there is such a thing, something not camo...

But I feel torn as the setup did work, and the body is more than salvageable, but I want to feel like I'm in an "Early CJ". There are numerous changes with the jeep, made to allow the new body to work, it's obvious now that I know it's a newer tub, the clutch transfer case has got some home-made brackets, etc... And it's a huge headache to try and think about going either way with this jeep.


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and yes, we are starting with the frame, suspension will be going on this weekend, with new brake lines and hopefully new fuel lines, if the ones I ordered are correct. I found the correct engine paint earlier from doing a search and will to get the engine painted and cleaned up. I'll also be painting the frame and then will be looking for bumpers (which I assume are the front are rear cross-members) you referred to. Still getting used to the lingo as a newbie. I know they are structural which I also learned from this forum. THEN its on to this now conundrum with the body.

Another quick question if i may, my father has been talking about the rear of the frame, and he thinks its been extended or something. In the previous picture of the frame, you can see some welds just behind where the back wheels are and then its straight. Is there something incorrect with this that you can see? Maybe it was rear ended at some point and that's why the body was replaced?

 

Looks rusty here, but you can buy the complete floor supports, ready to weld in. Look here , 1976-95 JEEP CJ5, CJ7, CJ8 BODY SUPPORTS http://www.classicent.com/jeep.php about 2/3 down the page.

Re the rear of the frame, it's been replaced with channel steel. Completely replaced - nothing factory there. The ends of the frame were cut off and replaced with generic channel steel, and the rear crossmember replaced with the "bumper" made of more channel steel. Likely it was a mistake to cut that off, at this point. The frame rails should be one continuous piece of steel, front to back. Look here - https://www.google.com/search?q=sit...IGIBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1511&bih=1063&dpr=1 - lots of pictures of Jeep frames.

Considering how much disassembly you've done, you now are committed to either parting it out or repairing it enough so that its running/driving again. Most people have no idea about the origin/vintage of these Jeeps, so you mostly need to be pleased with what you end up with. If you put it back like it was, 99.999% of the population will believe it's a restored '70 or '71. Did you pay a lot for this Jeep? If it's really not what you want, the least costly option at this point may be to part it out or sell it for parts. Don't be afraid to cut your losses ... however, this Jeep is not a disaster. Many of the Jeeps out there are a mix of various vintages and vehicles - not a big deal, unless it makes you unhappy.

 

Re bumpers or crossmembers, the rear is really a crossmember. You could buy accessory bumpers for the rear, but the factory crossmember sits directly under the edge of the body, and does not extend out at all. These are shown on the Classic Enterprises site, linked above.

The front is a bumper, but it's structural, as you pointed out. Originally it was riveted to the frame. In '72 Jeep went to Saginaw steering (like you have) and added an additional front crossmember between the frame horns, and the bumper bolts on. You definitely need something between the front frame rails to stiffen the mount for the steering. So the stuff you removed at the front both holds the frame ends parallel for the springs, as well as transferring forces from the steering to both sides of the frame. Here again, cutting that stuff off may have been a mistake, depending on where you want to go with the Jeep.

It may be helpful to find some less modified Jeeps from this era to look at. Then you'll have a better idea of what should be there, and what's been changed. You're in Florida? Ask in off-topic whether there are some members with Jeeps that you can visit and talk to. Jeepers are typically a friendly lot - bring your Dad along. This will accelerate your learning a lot.

 

I wondered about that too, but I thought these mounts were on the crossmember above the rear axle. maybe not ...

 

Steering system looks like it needs some attention.
Looks the the saginaw box is mounted on an intentionally bent metal or has pulled away from the frame. Also looks like they adapted to the double-eyelet tierod setup that was from the old bellcrank in some way. Tierod/draglink would be better, I think.
Angle looks high coming towards the box from the firewall, but maybe that was to avoid the front-dump exhaust manifold. Not sure about that.

I am dealing with modifying a 67 CJ6 to power steering, so your visuals have actually helped me to see some things.

 

Lots of stuff going on in this Jeep.........like Tim mentioned 76 and later Tub.........and 71 and earlier front end with short front fenders..........steering gear is barely mounted on a flimsy plate, looks to be an early. early, front suspension and perhaps front axle looking at those early U-shackles. Looks like it was pieced together from a few different donors...........Still usable.

 

A machine gun mount! Awesome!

To me it looks like a pretty good starting point to build whatever you want - if you want an Early CJ5. You've got the latest version (newest) '5, plus quite a bit of custom extras. I would say run with it but that's just my opinion.

 

The tub has the cutouts for the top bows on it which I think is an Early/Intermediate characteristic. My '79 CJ5 doesn't have that so I think it's an intermediate tub? But it looks like the late CJ transmission cover. Definitely an M38A1 frame.

 

Floors are late, so that rules out an intermediate tub. That kind of roll bar won't work with an intermediate tub. And an intermediate tub would sit on the early frame mounts - no need for the outriggers.

I agree, that the bow pockets are usually not late, but the rest of the tub is definitely late.

 

Thanks for the links, I have been looking for those body supports. We have 2 days into disassembly and the jeep was traded for an old 85 bronco we had on the farm. So other than the parts already ordered, we really don't have much into the jeep itself. I am pretty set on going into battle with this thing though, If it takes a little longer, thats fine. I like the idea of having a project, IMO there are a lot of problems but the jeep is in reasonable condition, surely I can make something out of it.


However, what is this talk about it being an M38A1 frame? To be completely honest, I know nothing about them. :? My head is going to hurt in a few minutes for sure. What does that represent? Also that picture of the M38A1 frame that was posted, it appears to be lacking a body mount on the frame, driver side just in front of the back wheel, in the pictures I have of mine, its also lacking that one. I was assuming mine was MIA, are they meant to be like that?

^^^Also, would this mean suspension for a 55-75 CJ5 wont work?

The Front and Rear Bumpers or crossmembers were literally just pulled off. The Jeep sat for so long I think the welds were barely holding on. So I would like to replace them with something, I was looking into the WARN bumpers as thats what we have on most of the other jeeps. If we welded those bumpers on the front and rear of the frame, would that provide adequate integrity? Or were you saying that I need a rear crossmember AND the rear bumper?


I am aware the steering needs a lot of attention, that is something I stress about the most as I have the least experience with it. I would like to keep the saginaw steering, just need to clean it up some, that is another headache for later down the road though. Not too much further hopefully but a little ways...


Sorry for the mult and long response, I have been away all day and came back to find this plethora of information. Its exciting almost overwhelming for a new guy like me. I guess you get what you ask for here though! Thanks again everyone, I really appreciate the help so far.