Brake Swap questions

Ok, assuming I ever get the rear hub assembly off I have a question.

Currently I have a D44 that came on the 1963 CJ5. It has the tapered axles and I am planning on removing the rear brakes and replacing them with the brakes off my 1969 Wagoner. But, while trying, and failing, to remove the rear hub assembly I noticed something.

On the setup the CJ5 has on it now the drum attaches to a hub part that then slides over the tapered axle. So what I mean is when I pull the rear hub the studs are still there attached to the part the connects to the axle.

On the Wagoner the axle does not work the same way. Basically when you pull that hub, which is easy, the drum just slides off bringing the wheel studs with it. What is left behind is the just the brakes parts and the backing plate.

So my question is, what do people do when they do this conversion? I can't just take the axles out of the Wagoner because they are way too long and if I am not mistaken the differential is centered. For information the Wagoner is a 1969 with the 350 V8 and the automatic transmission.

Anyway, any advice is welcome. If it means buying new axles I can do that if I can get some cheap enough, but that also leaves me having to install them and one of the only things I fear doing on a Jeep is messing with the gear setup in the axles. Is the full floating conversion people talk about?

 

Are you talking about using the front brakes off the Wagoneer to put on the rear of your CJ? Some clarification needed here I think.


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Sounds like he is removing the rear brakes from the Waggy and wanting to put them on the rear of his '65.

That sounds interesting. I have a '85 Waggy (Parting out), wonder if that would work on a '65 CJ5.

 

Might not work if they are 12 inch IIRC.

 

Backing plates won't work.


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12" used on trucks but not Wagoneers.


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Huh, my mistake.

 

The studs don't come off with the drums on the rear unless a tapered axle and the flange comes off like his tapered axle.




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Sorry I was out, yes I am trying to use the rear brakes off the wagoner on the rear of the CJ. They are 11 inch not 12 inch. I was going to swap both the front and back.

I was under the impression I could just re-drill the backing plate and it would work. Not saying that is true but that is what I was thinking when I did it.

My rear Wagoner drums do come off with the studs on. The CJ of course does not, the drum comes off separate and leaves the studs behind on the hub.

It is not a huge loss if I can't make them work, because I got the rolling chassis basically free and just wanted to try it. It seemed like free 11 inch brakes for me. I am guessing the front might still work. The Wagoner and the CJ both have D27's up front, just different width models

I am basically trying to do what you see on Herm's website on this page http://hermtheoverdriveguy.com/?page_id=1239

"Includes new Wagner drums, new Wagner wheel cylinders, new Wagner brake hardware kit, new Wagner brake shoes and reconditioned backing plates. New 11” brake kit for rear #41 and #44 rear axle with tapered or flanged axle, no e-brake hookup."

 

Is the Wagoneer rear axle a tapered axle or a flanged axle? Please supply as much info as possible regarding the parts you are trying to use and fit them on. Not a link to a site that tells us nothing about what you are working on/with.
If a tapered axle the backing plates are a direct bolt on. If a flanged axle the top two holes need redrilled. Sounds like a tapered axle and the drums are coming off with the flange. You have two chooses if this is the case. Press the studs out of the flange to remove the drum (be aware many had the studs swaged in place), or acquire different drums.


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It is a flanged axle, I can probably get pictures tomorrow. I only posted the link just to give people the kind of a swap I had in mind because I seemed to make it confusing at first.

I was thinking that maybe I could press the studs out but I was not sure that would work.

So how does that work. Do I press out the studs so it leaves holes behind? Then take off the hub which has studs in it already, put the backing plate on like the old one, put the hub back on as before and the slip the new drum on with old studs coming through?

Is that what you mean? If so that does not sound to bad. Even if I have to get new drums it should be ok.

The front hubs will bolt directly on won't they? I was planning on using the steering knuckle and everything that way I could have the double eye for a Saginaw swap.

btw thanks Nickmil, I really did not know how to go about explaining it. I am glad you worked out what my gibberish meant.

For the record I have both sets of drums off, so I can get pictures tomorrow if needed. I have yet to figure out how to get the rear hubs off my Jeep, I have read loads of post about it on here, I have tried heat, using the pullers made for it, various techniques heating the hub, just can't get it off so until I do I can't proceed past that point anyway.

 

I was just told that the '49-'51 Mercury brakes will bolt on to a early CJ with opening the hole some and maybe some spacers.


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There are 2 different types of rear hub/ drum combos on tapered axle 44's. On one the hub is easily separated from the drum. On the other the drum is attached to the hub, it looks like the splines on the studs hold the drum onto the hub. I have one set of those in my garage and have not tried to separate the hub from the drum since I dont need them.
Jon

 

Hmm, well I got the drum off pretty easy but getting the hub off is proving exceptionally hard. I would not even care about the hub but the backing plate goes behind it.

My newest plan is to the put the wheel one and drive around with the main nut hand tight. Hopefully the slack will allow the weight of the Jeep to break it lose.

 

I would suggest that you follow the advice given here about removing the hubs. There are plenty of earlier posts about removing rear hubs. They can be very tough, but if you persist, they will come off. You need a heavy-duty puller, a big hammer, and persistence. http://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=af776853afb991db&q=site:earlycj5.net+remove+rear+hub

 

Well I tried the driving around and forgot one little detail - no hubs means you blow out the wheel cylinder. It does not matter much that it blew but it was surprising when the brakes went

Timgr is there a limit to how much you can hit on it? As in how much pressure? I have the real tool for the job and so far no luck. I am afraid I will break the axle or something in the differential. I have definitely saw a lot of post about it and tried most everything I have found but the hub has not come free yet. I am persistent though

 

Did you try heat with the hub puller installed and lots of pressure? Did you try hitting the end if the puller with lots of pressure applied to the hub-axle? If installed correctly the puller will not break the axle. It may bend the hub or lightly damage the end of the axle but that should be able to be cleaned up. Many of the pullers have a cross bar that you hit with a hammer. I would also suggest leaving the nut on the axle but loose. Sometimes the hub comes off violently and this keeps it from flying across open spaces or into someone/something.

Once you get the hub/drum off check and see if the studs are swaged on. If so you need to remove the swaging before pressing them out or you will damage the hub. A dremel tool can work well for this with some patience.


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Ok, I took a 10lb hammer and went bonzi and the hub did in fact break loose. Coming off violent is an understatement. I did have the nut on but it still came out with such force that it hit the sledge hammer which transmitted the shock to my hand and left a bruise on my thumb and two fingers. That is nuts - this has been two weeks of heating, hitting, spraying penetrating oil, using pressure and hitting - every technique in the book. In the end I just said forget this I am breaking the axle and moving on, and I hit as hard as I could with two hands and a 10lb hammer, we are talking full over head swings. I put a tongue wrench on to get some idea and I was pressing with over 480lbs of pressure

The CJ's axles are tapered, the Wagoner axles are flanged. Both axles are D44. The brakes on the CJ were the standard 9 inch, the brakes on the Wagoner are the standard 11 inch.

It looks like I am good shape now but I want those tapered axles gone, there is no excuse for something designed that poorly. What does it take swapping the axles out and what am I looking at for donors?

I don't know what swagged means but I believe they are just pressed in - they basically just look like large screws with a flat head on them

 

Now that I have the hub off and I have the drum from the wagoner laying next to it I can see a big difference. On the old CJ the hub has a oil sill or something, my was gone but it is clearly grooved for something. I have that exact same groove cast into the actual drum from the wagoner so I am going to say these two parts are not going to work together. I think pressing out the studs won't matter.

So I am back to wondering about the axles. It seems like if I get some flanged axles that will fit into this rear end it should be able to bolt to the grooved drum. That or I find another drum but one thing I like about the drums I have now is they work with stock rims.

I am guessing I should change out the large bearing right at the axle end, behind the backing plate. I can't tell if it is bad or not but considering how hard this is to get to, I think it is probably worth doing it. I have not worked out how you get that bearing out yet, but I have not tried yet either. I am just rejoicing at finally getting one of these hubs off

 

Ok, so I tore the hub assembly down on the Wagoner and it turns out it is flanged also, the two axles look just a like from the axle flange inward. That means this is a really simple swap once you manage to get your hubs off the CJ. The way it is it will bolt right on with all the parts that were used on the Wagoner

I just need to find out about that inner bearing and whatever seal used to be there