Help needed installing 10" Wagner Self Adjusting Hardware

I have a set of 10" Wagners with self adjusting hardware from a '69 Commando. They came to me with the adjuster pivot (the tab that screws onto the lead shoe) marked R on the left brake, and L on the right brake. So I switched them thinking that they were mixed up, but now I can't see how the self adjusting works. I'm thinking that I must have installed it wrong, any ideas?

How they were before, this is the right brake (pivot is marked L):

In this configuration it looks like the brakes will adjust every time you brake while moving forward.

How they are now, this is the right brake (pivot is marked R ):

Any braking would appear to push the rods off the block pin or out of the adjuster lever. (All the white is some rust remover, getting it prepped to disassemble and paint.)

 

Got a full set of backing plates with the shoes and hardware still attached, I'll dig them out and get some pictures. Strangely the manual shows one part number for L front and R rear and another part number for R font and L rear, It doesn't mention whether they're stamped or not.

 

Due to unforeseen circumstances, they'll be installed on the front if that changes anything. (but originally came from a '69 Commando rear axle)

[I had intended for them to be on the rear (with 11ers on the front), but my front axle knuckle has a funky shape where the tie rod joint is and 11"ers don't fit, but 10" do fit, so the 10"ers are going on the front now]

 

The way they are installed in the first picture is correct. The link that goes up to the pivot is larger diameter than the one going to the adjuster. The flat of the pivot has to go toward the shoe as in the first picture and the large hole has to be on the top side. Set up like you have it in the second picture would never give any self adjustment. 40 years out of high school and almost as many out of trade school so i can't really explain now how it works, I just know it does. Self adjustment occurs when backing up and applying the brakes, not while going forward. I was never that good at the explaining, better at the doing .

 

Thanks for the confirmation Pack Rat!

I'll let the reason why they stamped confusing letters on the pivots remain a mystery...

 

Not to spoil your fun and your plan, but those backing plates appear to be from a model 30 rear axle; I don't think they will bolt to the front spindles, the bolt pattern is different.
Just looks different to me and that's all I can think of. (Maybe they can be drilled to work?)
If they came from a Model 44 they would work.
Better check a little closer, I could be wrong.

 

No worries: I'm using different backing plates that have proper bolt pattern. Pictures are just for hardware double checking.

Btw, found a diagram in the Haynes manual that showed the pivot the same as the 1st pic, but on rear shoe. I have a new theory: they moved the self adjusting hardware to the front shoe to make room for the parking brake equipment. So previous secondary shoe pivots work on opposite sides ad leading shoe pivots but would have the opposite letter (r vs l) stamped. Really doesnt matter as long as it works

 

Ours is not to reason why?

 

Uhh guys, the first pic shows the self adjuster hardware for the right side but the secondary shoe and park brake lever for the left side. Someones been mixing and matching parts. There some good pics of a bendix setup in the intermediates section right now under "drum brake question" iirc. Very similar system and the pics should be helpful

 

nickmil: this thread? http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?88299-74-drum-brake-question Looks like the ebrake lever is on the secondary shoe, which is the same as the first picture. Not that stamping matters much for these brakes, but the lever is stamped 'R'. Is there something I'm overlooking?

The fellow who was kind enough to send me the parts (a user on this forum) said that they were Wagner, not Bendix design. I can't find any documentation on Wagner specifically, only the donor's advice that this set up worked. I know that Bendix definitely puts the self actuation on the secondary shoe. (like in the diagram on this page: http://www.lunghd.com/Tech_Articles/Suspension_Steering_Axles_and_Brakes/Drum_Brake_Service.htm) I can assemble these to put the self adjuster on the secondary shoe (although I'd have to double check that the screw on the pivot doesn't hit the parking brake lever). However I only want to do things the way they were meant to be (mix and matching with brakes seems a bit dangerous to the health)...

More evidence that the right brake in the 1st pic was assembled correctly: the adjuster screw (star wheel) in the picture is stamped R (again, not that stamping means much in this brake). And here's the kicker: the star wheel extends when spun the way the self-actuating lever moves it. Had the 'R' star wheel been installed in reverse then it would compress when spun.

I'm getting ready to install these guys, I guess I'll hold off until a consensus is reached.

 

Couldn't sleep, tried out putting the self adjusting hardware on the secondary shoe. New shoe didn't have threads for pivot so manually threading it allowed it to hold tight without interfering with parking brake lever. Here's a picture of the left brake, looks like it'll work and [with a new star wheel] all parts are stamped 'L'. The self adjusting lever in the picture is just there to mock it up (the other one isn't painted yet). What do you all think, safe?


Note to others, the block pin is shorter on '66 CJ backing plates than '69 Commando plates, so you'll have to put the self adjusting rod on first to squeeze it all on.

 

If these are going on the front as you have stated, why the parking brake lever at all ?
I've also found a diagram in the parts manual that shows the parking brake lever on the opposite side from the self adjusting hardware. So it would appear that your first picture shows it all correctly.

 

The self adjuster hardware is on the primary side not the secondary side where they should be. The park brake lever is on the secondary side where it should be

 

OK, so it looks like I have the parts to do this either way: self adjusting on the primary or secondary shoe. There's a manual (per jpflat2a) that says primary and the PO says primary, which tells me to do primary. But there's also people saying secondary bc that's how bendix does it and it makes the stampings match up (and let's face it, I can understand the self actuating while in reverse if on the secondary shoe, but I'm not comprehending how it works when the hardware is on the primary shoe unless it self actuates in forward).

So which should I do?

Just unrelatedly experimenting with "manual traction control" offroad until I get a front locker. But eventually I'll take the lever out or leave it in for extra braking while winching.

 

Fantastic, this solves the mystery. I will install the SAHW (self adjusting hardware) on the primary shoe.

Also, to confirm what has already been mentioned, I just saw a scan of the FSM and it shows the rear brakes with SAHW on the primary shoe and the front with the SAHW on the secondary shoe.

Thank you for everyone's help!

 

I'd go with the fsm but that is certainly backwards from every other duo servo brake system I've ever seen. I haven't dealt with many of the early cj or jeepster 10" brakes though. We always jump straight from 9"to 11" or discs.
Still seems counterintuitive to have them tighten going forward. If it were me I'd switch them, but that's just me.

 

Just re read and note you are planning on putting these on the front. That being the case I'd switch them around. According to the fsm info posted they were like the pic on the rear only