New owner of (2) CJ3B's, need help.

Hey guyes, new to this great forum. Reading lots of good info here.

I just purchased a 1953 CJ3B from a guy in the scraping buisiness. I also got a parts 3B (not sure the year, front clip missing).

The 53 is in running condition, all drive train is in tack, but the frame, hangers, and diferentials are extremely warn(SHOT). The parts CJ has good dif's, springs / hangers, shock mounts, and the frame has almost no cracks. The brakes appear to be useable. It also has a ruined GM V 6 engine and locked up trans, but a good 18 transfer?

I want a off road only vehicle for my wife, 18month son, and I to trail ride with. I wish the jeep was geared lower but will have to go on trails that will allow a little higher speed.

I have removed the body, engine/trans from the parts CJ and am ready to start removing parts from the 53 CJ.

Now for the questions:

(1) Brakes, the 9" brakes on the doner frame are shot, the master cylinder appears to be ruined, but the wheel cylinders look rebuildable. What are my cheapest / best options? Are there any readily avaliable parts that are easily adaptable to the CJ3 that I can pull from a salvage yard? I need brake shoes,wheel cylinders, master cylinder, and flex hoses most likely. If so can you tell me the make/model/year to pull parts from. Or If I have to buy rebuild components, who has good prices?

(2) Engine, the F-134 runs good (Needs correct carb.) but if I spent the effort to get this thing going, I think I would realy like to have a more modern motor. What is the ci / year of this V6? What was the HP? And is there a later model V6 engine that will bolt to the bell houseing?

(3) What is the cheapest route to get a lower gear for the CJ3B. I drove it around the yard (small hills) in low range, it is geared very high compared to my 03 Dodge. Why is it geared so high? How capeable is a good runing CJ3B off road. Can it handle moderate trails?

All I am after is something reliable, something to get my family and I started on the 4x4 trails (have been in ATV scene but running out of places that we can go, and an 18 month old can't hold on yet). The guy that had these CJ3's was hauling them to the metal recycling plant for scrap. I got all the above mentioned for $100.00 + a small .22 auto pistal.

Now to throw another option in, I also have a 350ci chevy bolted to a T-90 with a Novac plate. I have had this set up for a long time, I did not know what I had untill a couple of days ago when I found this site and started reading links. This combo is in a 50 Chevy pickup that someone tried to put a 4x4 willys frame under. I don't want a V8 for the little CJ3, but what is the smallest engine that has the same bolt pattern?

So what do you guys think?
Thanks for any info, guidance, or referances you can give me.

 

are the diff's in the parts jeep also high geared ?? I would use the t90 with the novak bolted to a 4.3L gm v6. It uses the same bell housing as the 350. The smallest engine with the same bolt pattern is a 153 chevy 4 cylinder which isn't a bad choice for a 3b. Don't even consider rebuilding the 9" brakes. They didn't work very well when new. Do an 11" drum brake update.

JB

 

for parts resources, read thru here:
http://earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25203

you're in a difficult position in my opinion, nothing that can't be overcome with time and money.

here's why.....

you're about to spend on the project Jeep more than what you could find a good running driveable Jeep for, even at that very low buy-in.

if you went back stock, F4, T90, 9 inch brakes, that would most likely be the least expensive way: find a used engine (you have one already), trans (you have one already), brakes etc, just to get it running and driveable.
if you put more powerful go into the Jeep, you're gonna need more powerful whoa as well.

more modern....okay, an even fire 231, T90, 10" or 11"brakes
this invloves cooling system and steering and exhaust work as well

in summary, you could very easily spend $1000-$2500 getting it going, no matter which path you choose

now the Jeep is running and driveable; let's talk family.
have they ever been in an open body Jeep before ?
will they like the open body and no doors ?
you'll need a good rear seat for the infant car seat to be secured to properly; rain, wind and sun protection ?
no a/c, radio, cushy comforts

I'm not trying to be negative and discourage you, but are you willing to spend the money on the Jeep and then hope the family enjoys it when you're done?

The Jeep has the potential to give you and your family hours, weeks, and even years of enjoyment; just step back and look at the big picture before you make the committment of major time and major money.

anyway, that's my opinion

 

Howdy, what GM V6 engine is it, and I don't understand you not having low enough gears in a CJ3B. They should have 5.38's in it, are you sure you got the transfer case into low range? I run a Chevy 153 cubic inch inline 4 in my CJ2A, it fits great and has good power. And, as for the brakes, get some 11 inch brakes the nine's are not worth working on. So, do you have pictures, we love pictures.

 

Isn't the 151 a Chevy pattern? If so, it's 2 cid smaller than the 153. I hear it's pretty common in the S-10. I don't think the 153 was used in anything other than the Chevy II/Nova for a few years, and ca 1970 postal Jeeps. I would prefer the 153 though if I could find one (4/6ths of a 230 Cheb I6).

You can buy a 181 crate engine, industrial or marine, which is a bored 153. That'd be cool, but maybe too expensive.

How much machining can you do? Almost any 11" Bendix brakes with a 5 on 5.5" pattern will work if you can machine the backing plates to fit. Mid 60s Ford F-100s and big Ford and Mercury cars with drums are possible donors. For some reason, the old-timers preferred Mercurys - don't know why. 5-lug Wagoneer 11" brakes (65-72) will bolt up without changes. 72-75 CJ brakes too, any Jeep with 5-lug 11" drum brakes should work. Bronco drum brakes are said to work with some machining.

 

The easiest way to get a 181 is to shop for a mercruiser 140 from a boat. The only disadvantage to using the 181 is the lack of auotmotive style intake and exhaust manifolds. clifford does make both but are difficult to get from them. I have a 181 in my cj5 and had to fab both intake and exhaust. It is a very good engine with considerable power over the 153 or 151.

JB

 

Guyes, thanks for the info.

One more option, maybe.

The 50 pickup I mentioned has dif's from a full size vehicle, old cheroke I think, they are about 1' longer than the CJB's. When I bought the truck, it was driveable, but the stearing was a mess, I drove it around a couple of times till the transmision locked up, the input/output shaft bearing fried. Who ever started the 50/4x4 swap just made a mess. They cut the frame on each side of the spring hanger and welded that frame section to the 50 frame. When they put everything together, the drive shafts are on a severe angle.

Would I be better off puting the longer axles under the CJB, this would give me a better brake setup if I can get a master cyl behind the CJ pedal.

What year 4.3 V6 should I be looking for? And what is the body style that they are commonly in?

And is the transmision in the 53CJ3 a T-90? It is still in the body and I can't get a good look at it?

Will the flywheel off the 350 chevy bolt to the crank of the 4.3 V6?

Can I cut the poorly fabed spring mounts off the long axle tubes, and weld new ones on. What can I make the mount out of?

I am only after a starter vehicle, I was heavy into atv rideing at Windrock Mt. befor my son was borned. I just don't have a desire to ride anymore without my wife and son, so a 4x4 that the 3 of us can ride in seems to be the answer. If I can get something going, after some 4x4 experiances, I will have a better idea of what I / we want and can go from there.

Maby I should remove the good trans from the CJ3, strip the undercaridge from the 50 and start from scratch? The body is heavy, and the frame is narrow.

Again, thanks for all the info you can provide.

Thanks...

 

The GM industrial engines site used to have a page on the Vortec 3000 (181) that showed a long block complete with manifolds. The 3000 is no longer there, replaced by an OHC 2500. However, there should still be parts stock, considering the V3000 was advertised just a few months ago, and you should be able to convert a marine engine.

Here's a site with a picture:
http://www.industrial-irrigation.com/Vortec PDF Brochures/Industrial_summary.pdf

 

GSS, I don't really understand what you are trying to do, but it sounds to me like your going to take 3 parts vehicles, throw a bunch of time and money into them, and end up with another parts vehicle.

You don't need to be so ambitious - a 3B (or 3A, or 2A or 5 or 6) is a spectacularly capable vehicle in stock form. Old tech, but good, proven tech. Since you're new to this, making a stock or near-stock vehicle run and drive will be the least risky path. If you don't like it, you can sell it and get your money back, or build something different.

Flat fendered Jeeps are hugely impractical for most people - if you are new to this, you'd be better off with even a well-used YJ or TJ. You get the open-air feeling of a Jeep with modern steering, brakes, and power. You get to test your trail driving skills, and if it doesn't work out, sell it at little or no loss.

JMO!

 

OK guyes, this my cheapest/quickest route to get to the trails:

New carb, master cylinder, shoes, and flex brake lines.

Rebuild original wheel cylinders.

Cost, at best $400.00 (Kaiser-Willys Auto Supply)

Are the Solex replacement carbs ($115.00) an exact swap, linkages and such?

How bad are the factory 9" brakes in rebuilt condition?

When I brought the CJ home, the original carb was in bad condition, but it would idle at about 1,200 rpm, I jumped in it, (absloutely no brakes) and took it for a drive around the property, I thought I was in high range by the speed I was going. So I shifted the transfer to what I was hoping was low, but no, it was already in low range.

There is a tag on the dash that estimates the recomended speeds for each gear in low and high range. It estimates low range at 4,000r's at 9 mph, 4-5 mph on a somewhat rough trail seems very fast to me, but I am not a 4x4 pro. Comapred to my Dodge '03 4x4, in low range, 4 mph @ 4,000 rpm. The CJ is 50% or so higher geared. It seems like the clutch or occupants are going to be abused on rough sections.

The high gear is why I was considering a more modern V6, something with more torque so I can go through rough areas with as few rmp as possible to keep the speed down. And I am kind of weary of the F-134 engine. The 134 has great compression and sounds really good, but I am not sure about oil pressure, the standard fittings you get with a new guage doesn't have the right fittings to adapt to the line. The old guage needle wiggles but reads almost 0 at idle or at speed.

So what do you guyes think? Does this sound logical/practical way for us to get into the woods.

I am trying to get a 4x4 as cheep as possible, if we enjoy this, I will find a way to get a capable 4x4.

 

You must have a granny geared 5 speed in your Dodge truck, thats why it seems so fast. Most 4x4's don't have gearing that low from the factory.

 

Mcruff, it may be, it is a 3/4 ton so called heavy duty. But the shifter shows 1 thru 5, I do use 2nd to take off unless it's loaded.

I just checked the oil pressure of the F134, when hot, at idal it has about 5 psi, and about 20psi at 2,000ish, is this exceptable?

Also removed the master cylinder, it is trash, the bore is beond clean up.

I hope the wheel cylinders are useable, that would be another $100.00 for 4.

 

Yep if your starting off in 2nd gear when not loaded then yea you have a granny gear for 1st. A t90 with 2.98- 3.15 1st gear and 5.38 axles and 2.46 low range is not bad at all. Somewhere around 39-42 :1 depending on which t90 you have. Most later model cj's unless they have a 4 speed will be around 30:1 in low range.

 

you will never be happy with the 9" brakes. don't waste your time and effort on them.

JB

 

OK pictures of both 3b's would help and I mean left, right, front, rear, engine compartment, interior, and floor pans. That would give us a little to work with.
I am building a 3b and if I were you I would take the best parts of the two and combine them together make a good starter trail vehicle. Then if the left over parts are some what salvageable start building an extreme ride for later. With this plan at least you will still have something cool and old school to turn heads on the trail.
Check and see if you can get the gear ratio from the rear by counting rotation of the wheel vs the drive shaft or remove the cover and get the #s of the ring gear. D44 rear should have 47-11 for 4.27, 44-9 for 4.88 and 43-8 for 5.38.
Trust me you do not want to dive into a big time and $$$$$ consuming project and not have a ride to keep you going.
Also if the F-head runs, keep it, you will suprise a few people on the trail when it goes where they can't (Up Guardrail & Helicopter Pad at Tellico!).
The only other thing I would do is upgrade to the 11" brake conversion, a good roll cage, and maybe some seats for the wife and 18 month olds safety.

 

Low range does sound high be sure, it is in 4low and make sure you do not have an overdrive on the back of transfer case.

 

If I showed pics, you all would laugh. The good 53CJ's body is rough as you could imagine, but it is complete minus seats/frames. Is is so rough I was thinking about scraping the body and build a floor pan and sheet metal fender.

It is going to be a major "Ugly Duckling", but for a starter, I almost like it's rough looks. I will reinforce the body mounts and brake up some sheel metal for the missing rusted out areas (a lot of them).

I am wanting to order the parts that I know I have to have so I will not be held up once I start.

Can anyone tell me if the Solex carb is an exact replacement and is $115.00 a fair price. This is not counting the $25.00 core charge for the Carter carb.

Can anyone tell me if the original wheel cylinders will work with the 11" upgrade. If so, I can go ahead and rebuild the cylinders I have now, and upgrade if I can't live with the 9" I have now.

 

Put me in the column of "prudent spending" on the jeep.

The 3B is my favorite jeep, but 3B's are not worth much.
I use my 3B around the place almost every day for something, but I wouldn't spend any $$ to try to 'fix it up'.

If it was me I'd try to find a way out of this situation without spending another dollar on it.

Once you are rid of the 3B's, and if you still want a jeep, I'd go for something more 'together'. It'll be more fun, and if you still want to tinker with it you can.

Personally I like the 3B and cj6 a lot, but that is just a matter of taste.

Now, others may disagree, but that would be my offer of help; since you asked.

 

(3) What is the cheapest route to get a lower gear for the CJ3B. I drove it around the yard (small hills) in low range, it is geared very high compared to my 03 Dodge. Why is it geared so high? How capeable is a good runing CJ3B off road. Can it handle moderate trails?


That seems real strange. My 3B just crawls in low range 1st gear. She will climb anything I can throw at it and is still bone stock. So long as clearance isn't an issue I think my 3B could climb the side of a building!