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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Oct 1, 2021
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Northern California
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    I wouldn't worry about it sitting for only a few weeks. All of the friction parts should have plenty of oil on the surfaces still from assembly. We would pack race engines around in the trailer for a year without turning them over or priming the oil system. Of course we always used a priming tool to distribute oil and build oil pressure before starting them.
    If you have a big trash bag it wouldn't hurt to wrap it up.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  2. Oct 1, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    No pics for today...but oil pan, intake and water pump went on and few accessory odds and ends....leaving it as is with assembly lube (no oil priming) and the plastic garbage bag wrapped around it. Time to go wheeling...when I get back, I'll finish up the accessories mounts and get a final complete assembly picture. Still have some work to do in the engine bay - the effing steering column is still causing me headaches - the way this is going, I will never change the Ross box in the cj.
     
    Fireball likes this.
  3. Oct 15, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Getting close...just ignore the old valve covers - new ones are waiting until the end to go on.
    [​IMG]

    But I've run into a annoying issue...the plug for the water jacket port on the side of one of the heads is completely stuck...in trying to get it out, I broke the impact driver off in it. I did get the broken piece out, and tried some more, but at this point, without more heat than I can put to it, its just rounding out the socket plug. I don't know how I missed this earlier, but I don't want to tear the engine apart to get it out it at this point - so I think I just have to work around it.
    [​IMG]

    Anyway, the reason this is an issue is that I need 2 separate access points for temp probes: one for the gauge and one for the electric fan. One of the head ports is good to go, so the temp gauge will go there, but since I am using the old 1970 vintage intake, which only has one water jacket port normally used for heater hose connection, I am back to having to fiddle with some sort of riser neck at the thermostat outlet. The one I used last time on the 283 leaves the thermostat in place at the intake, and is just a spacer below the outlet neck with two 3/8" ports. I put the electric fan temp probe in it last time, and I guess it works, but the temp does make contact with the top of the thermostat housing and there is just a smidge of interference. Plus, I don't love that the temp sensor is downstream of the t-stat, but in reality, the fan wouldn't need to kick on until the t-stat is open.
    [​IMG]

    I thought I might have had a good solution when I found a t-stat riser with ports that raises the t-stat and goes between the intake and the t-stat, which would place the temp sensor upstream of the t-stat. But the bottom end of the t-stat is larger than the top end, and there is no hope to fit the sensor probe without interfering with the spring action of the t-stat. So I thought I was getting smart and figured that I could just swap the heater hose fitting to port on the riser (and put the temp sensor directly in through the intake)....it looks kind of goofy, and hose routing would be a bit more cumbersome, but I guess it could work:
    [​IMG]

    Of course, when originally test fitting all the pieces, I wasn't expecting to use a spacer at the t-stat, and the radiator hose neck had plenty of clearance with the high mount alternator. But with the 1" spacer, things don't fit. There is just enough clearance with the alternator adjustment completely maxed out, and I would probably also need to re-clock the alternator so as to not short the +12V terminal to the block.
    [​IMG]

    So, now I am thinking I might change the alternator mounting and use a high outboard passenger side mount. Originally, I didn't want to do this as it would interfere with the battery tray, but thinking the battery is going to get mounted to the firewall, so there would more room over there than before. Of course, there aren't as many options with a short pump but I'll go back a search. Moving the alternator off to the side would allow use of the t-stat riser, as well as I could use the passenger side port on the riser for the heater hose connection, and that would make the hose routing a bit cleaner.

    Some water necks also have a 1/2" port built into them, so that might be the best option...something like this....
    [​IMG]
    It supposed to be a nice warmer weekend, so I can paint the last couple things I need.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
    Ol Fogie and Twin2 like this.
  4. Oct 15, 2021
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    the chrome thingee (y)
     
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  5. Oct 15, 2021
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member 2020 Sponsor

    Sacramento Ca.
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    ^^^
    What he said, simple is good.
     
  6. Oct 15, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    So if I go with the water neck with built in port (hopefully in black and not chrome), the port is downstream of the t-stat. Should I put the e-fan temp sensor there (assuming it doesn't interfere with the t-stat), or should I put the heater hose connection there?
     
  7. Oct 15, 2021
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    put the fan sender in neck
     
  8. Oct 15, 2021
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    You might consider installing a bronze pipe nipple and tee at this heater hose connection port which is water out to the heater. Install your fan sensor in the top port of the tee and install the hose nipple into the side port of the tee. In this manner, the fan sensor will see the true engine water temperature.
     
  9. Oct 16, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Was just discussing that, and when the heater lines are flowing through the core, it would read very accurate. But what about when the heater line shut-off valve is closed - then there is no flow through the heater lines and core. Would it still measure as accurate a temp - guessing it would read just a bit below the actual temp? Basically, is it better or worse than having the fan temp sending unit after the thermostat - which is basically always open to some degree once the engine is up to temp? In all reality, it probably doesn't make much difference in either case.
     
  10. Oct 16, 2021
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
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    Dec 17, 2002
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    This is my thermostat housing on my 4.3ltr. I found it at a junk yard. I don't know what it is from, but it is the same as the V-8 housing. The one sending unit is for my temp gauge. The other is my electric fan sender.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Oct 16, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    This is the kind of stuff that wears me out... I clocked the case a 1/4 turn to get the +12V terminal away from the thermostat housing neck and give a bit more clearance, and now another part of the case is interfering with the heater hose nipple.
    [​IMG]

    That won't work, so if you go another 1/4 turn with clocking, the 2-blade connector is too far down and blocked by the bracket mount, and yet another 1/4 turn puts the +12V down at the bottom and into the manifold....4 positions and all have issues...
     
  12. Oct 16, 2021
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2021 Sponsor

    exploring the...
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    just ditch the bolt in that hole on the alt. clearance the case to miss the hose.
     
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  13. Oct 16, 2021
    45es

    45es Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    You make a good point but there are ways around the issue of no flow. Rather than using a on/off heater control valve, use a modulating flow style. There are both manually controlled styles such as this one: Amazon.com: Four Seasons 74643 Heater Valve : Automotive and vacuum controlled units such as this one used on early 2000 era Fords: FOUR SEASONS 74659 Heater Valve - Newegg.com . With the modulating type of valve, there will always be flow out of the manifold port to water pump but not to the heater unless you want it.
     
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  14. Oct 16, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Think this is going to be my final answer....the alternator is clocked, changed the heater hose outlet and alternator bolt to create clearance, and using the later style water neck with port on the top. The fan sensor doesn't contact the thermostat, but yes, it's downstream of the t-stat so it won't get a proper temp reading until it opens a bit, but if the t-stat is closed, the fan does not need to be running anyway. Like earlier sbc's, there is no coolant bypass although I could run if needed (the water pump does have the bypass inlet that I plugged). For now, the heater flow path has no shut off and will act like a bypass. Eventually it will get a shut off valve/flow control on the heater circuit. I will probably drill a small bubbler hole in the t-stat to get air out, and maybe that will also provide a minute amount of bypass flow. I was originally concerned an air pocket could develop in the neck where the temp sensor port is and disturb the temp reading, but it's smooth round sphere on the inside - same as without the port - so air bubble should not be a problem.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Oct 21, 2021
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
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    I had a similar problem with the manifold heater port on my 3B project. A chunk of 1" 6061 bar stock solved it.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Oct 24, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Steering is finalized, brakes MC and lines (with a bit of re-bending) are back in and bled. Starting to come together....
    [​IMG]

    I didn't paint the aluminum bellhousing, but wondering if I should have...Flywheel, clutch, pilot bearing, fork and TO bearing are all in under the bellhousing and I can go to bed now after midnight and sleep well knowing the input shaft is threaded through. I almost forgot I had to make some minor modifications to the clutch fork before install as I intend to use a pull cable to activate, and the generic sbc forks are set-up for a push linkage - So I drilled a little hole and slot to fit the cable end/adjuster nut thingy. D18 is next, as well as the mini starter motor which may need some clocking. And I am still fighting some issues with the top cover on the sm465, but hope to get that figured out tomorrow. Maybe I might even think about trying to setting it all into the wagon on the mounts. I still have a clutch cable bracket for the D18 to modify or fab. I leave Tues for a bit, and it would be awesome to at least have it bolted in on the mounts and cross-member in....
     
  17. Oct 24, 2021
    Jw60

    Jw60 Perfectly Within Tolerance 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Sedalia MO.
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    How much arm is on the release fork from pivot to pull cable?
     
  18. Oct 24, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Its 7.25" from center of pivot to center of cable pull point....
    I really don't know if my clutch is going to work....the clutch that came out of the previous set-up with the 283/T90 combo was also quite the hodgepodge version of a pull cable - but it did work. My only complaint about it was the zone/range of pedal movement between fully engaged and fully disengaged was very small - basically, it was hard to 'burn' the clutch as it seemed to go from fully disengaged to fully engaged in a very tiny range of movement right in the middle of the total pedal throw. It could have been the clutch itself, i don't know. The previous clutch fork was to half forks welded together - the TO end was typical of 'newer' GM stamped versions (just like the one I put on - not the older more cast looking ones that had the sort of square shaft)... and the outer end was something else - maybe the end of he square cast style, or maybe the original t90 fork? Anyway, it is 6.5" from pivot to cable pull....

    So I am changing things, and not sure what is going to happen. The distance from the pivot to the center of the TO bearing is the same on both, but the new one will be 3/4" longer from pivot to pull cable. So, the two things that I think will happen is the longer pedal arm will make the pedal effort just a bit less (pretty small effect and not that critical), and I am hoping it will increase the range of motion of the pedal to go from fully engaged to fully disengaged. Obviously, if it increases the range too much, I could in theory run out pedal travel (or fork travel in the bellhousing opening), but I think that is unlikely given the previous set-up.

    The previous system had the pull cable bracketry and pulley mounted to the inside of the frame rail, and the cable did not pull directly rearward, but had an angle outward towards the frame rail, although not enough to cause any significant issues. I was hoping to mount the cable bracket on the D18 like it is on the late v6 cjs....I even have an extra bracket to use, but its not a direct fit on the small case D18 (it was made for a large case D18). So haven't decided if I will try to modify or start from scratch and model it after the bracket. I will also need a bracket on the inside of the frame rail, but that is pretty easy (hopefully) piece of angle iron with a proper sized hole and slot to anchor the pedal end of the cable sleeve. We'll see....
     
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  19. Oct 24, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    sm465 top cover and D18 is all installed. Getting the clutch figured out as well....
    [​IMG]

    The large case clutch cable bracket works quite easily with a little spacer....The cable doesn't pull straight back, but I think it should be fine.
    [​IMG]

    The cable is my cheap Omix v6/T14 cable that I carry as a spare (they like to break)....assuming it works, I'd order the high quality one from inline tube. But, one thing I was a bit worried about, with the longer 4 speed and adapter, a lot of length of the inner cable is used up, and there isn't much cable left coming out of the pedal end of the sheath - doesn't leave much room to mount the bracket for that end and and reach the pedal.....I'll probably have to figure out how to functionally extend the cable a bit....maybe a little extension of all thread connected to the threaded end that the adjuster nut screws onto, and/or maybe add a link to the pedal end.
     
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  20. Nov 7, 2021
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Was trying to prime the oil pump and flow oil up to the rockers today with my priming tool...its the cheapo one I bought for the 225v6 a few years ago (and it worked great), and I was certain it was advertised as also functional for the the sbcv8 (after some review - yes its advertised for the sbc and bbc as well - but a lot of complaints!).
    Anyway, the driver side valve train primed nicely, but the passenger side was nothing, not an effing drop....so I did all the things you do like turn the crank a bit, run the primer drill for long time, run it at high and low speeds, and then basically freak out that something is really screwed up and some oil galley passageway is blocked and am going to have to disassemble the engine.
    But then some internet research indicates that the generic cheapo priming tool has some sort of design flaw that doesn't work with the sbc set-up....the lower 'bushing' does not match the distributor, and blocks the passenger side oil galley at the pump, or something like that....So I cannibalized the useless HEI that came with the used engine and made my own tool....
    [​IMG]

    You can see the difference in the lower bushing - the blue cheap tool has the bushing higher up the shaft, and the groove between the two ridges is much wider. I welded a hex nut on the end of the 1/2" shaft to make it easier to spin, and my 1/2" drill is big and heavy, and I have very limited space up against the firewall. I am hoping I will be able to spin it with my air ratchet once its installed. Its not really necessary, but I'd like to have the lower end a bit more finished with the 'over' sleeve or collar that goes around the flathead end to help it stay stable on the pump groove. Might have to cannibalize the distributor gear, but would have to either cut off the tooth section, or grind them off in some way (without a mill or lathe).
    I haven't actually tested the new tool - was too worn out and tired tonight to continue on with it, but pretty confident its going to work tomorrow.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
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