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Bad Engine Noise

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by FinoCJ, Sep 16, 2016.

  1. Sep 16, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I developed a very LOUD 'clacking' sound last weekend when out wheeling. My instinct is that is valve train related but... Was in 4low just transitioning from flat to going up a steep rutted hill, and a loud clack started and hasn't stopped. It was definitely a steep enough hill that it probably was starving for oil (I like tarry99 oil pan baffle - might have to try that). I lost a lot power as it tried to climb the hill - but some of that may have been the carb flooding out as well. I got it to the top of the hill spitting and sputtering but that was about it. I brought it home (towed) and have been checking things out. I actually though it might have jumped timing chain tooth, but after cleaning up the carb and idle and fouled plugs and checking the timing spark etc, all is good and it basically idles/runs smooth - but with a disturbingly LOUD clack from I think the right bank.

    I dry checked compression: A bit low but the low to high range is okay (135-150) - I know the rings are going a bit so a bit of oil would probably bring them up - mostly was checking serious failure. I removed valve covers and all the lifters and springs look fine (no visible damage), and checked they move when turning the engine by hand. But I did NOT check the amount of travel - might need to do this. Using a rubber hose to listen, the sound is deafening when I put the hose over the open oil fill hole on the right bank. Its also very loud when I put it over the breather hole on the left bank but not quite as loud. I can also hear it some with hose on the bottom oil pan.

    My guess is something happened to a cam lobe - maybe flatted one. I should probably check the amount of pushrod movement to see if its way too small. Am I on the right track? If its the cam, is there any reason to just change out the cam, or if going that far into it, I should look into more stuff - probably taking it to a shop. I think I could possibly change out the cam assuming I can get the harmonic balancer off, and timing chain should probably be done etc. The PO left me with some receipts for some sort of engine rebuild in 2000 (maybe 20,000+ miles ago). The shop that did the work didn't keep records from that long ago so unknown if it was just the top end, ring job etc is unknown. What to do next?
     
  2. Sep 16, 2016
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    Can you run it with the valve cover off?
     
  3. Sep 16, 2016
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Spokane Valley, WA
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    With any luck, maybe it's as simple as a broken $5 timing chain tensioner. The chain would smack against the right side of the cover ~every revolution if the chain is stretched enough. Stick your listening hose just above the oil pump, see if it's loudest right there.
    Good luck!
     
  4. Sep 16, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    At the moment no b/c I dropped the oil pan as well. Should have done it first.

    A little more info: The oil pressure went low (even for a 225). It normally runs about 15 on my gauge at idle but it went to under 10 and towards zero. It does pick back up with throttle. So I dropped the pan (also need to replace the rear seal) and there is shiny silver metal in the oil pick-up screen. Think that may be blocking some oil flow and also a good indicator of something like a cam lobe disintegrating? Could be something worse like a piston I guess? I'll post a pic of the screen tonight - I don't like seeing any metal in there, but my limited lexperience as to what is a 'little' and not too bad vs a 'lot' and major problems is still developing.
     
  5. Sep 16, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I checked the slack in the timing chain by moving the engine by hand in both directions and measured (using the timing marks) the amount of play before the rotor began to move. About 8 degrees - not great but not too bad. Also, the hose didn't pick up much sound from the timing cover or oil pump area.
     
  6. Sep 16, 2016
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    You got a magnet? How's your oil filter look?
    Crossing my fingers for ya!
     
  7. Sep 16, 2016
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    "Shiny silver metal on the pickup screen."Are these big chunks or just little flakes/sparkles? There shouldn't be any significant metal loose in the pan.
    A lifter/cam follower coming apart could have a loud tapping and loss of oil pressure. I have seen the retainer clip come off, allowing the inner disc to be pushed out.
    Check your valve train more closely, especially on the noisy side. Also, try to examine the metal fragments to possibly identify the source, if they are large enough.
    -Donny
     
  8. Sep 16, 2016
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Spokane Valley, WA
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    That's too bad that the sound isn't coming from there.
    Checking play at the rotor doesn't really tell you if the tensioner is in place. Moving the engine backwards will just flex the tensioner if it is there, so you'd have 8* regardless. But if the sound isn't coming from there, dig deeper. :(
     
  9. Sep 16, 2016
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Won't a flattened cam lobe affect compression?

    A failed fuel pump can make a clack-clack-clack but I would not expect an oil pressure loss.

    After inspecting the fuel pump, I'd probably pull the intake manifold next.
     
  10. Sep 16, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Did you ever look at the Rod & Main Bearings last time around?...........Maybe I lost track of your progress.............Noise's , metal on the screen......might be bearing material and bearings going away ........I would check there first since you have the pan off...........then do a leak down and see what you find in the overhead.........
     
  11. Sep 16, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    This is where I am now...I've never looked in any detail at a crank and connecting rod bearings before so not sure what I can tell, especially given its still in the jeep. There is a flat metal sheet immediately below the crank and stuff (a sort of splash guard from the oil in the pan?) that blocks most of my view. This looks like it can be removed easily with 4 bolts and that will allow me to see what I need. I think this will also need to be moved just to replace the rear seal as well.

    Also looks like the oil-pick up tube can be easily removed? At work so I am trying to remember from last night. I want to take that pickup tube and screen out and clean it (and get some pics of the metal debris). IIRC the bigger pieces are a few mm. Will also remove the oil filter and look in there.
     
  12. Sep 16, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    If you have pieces of metal that are a few mm in size, something has come apart. Piston skirt or lifter or something else. The knocking noise to me sounds like con rod bearings or mains. The noise you have had pushing the clutch in sounds like the main that has thrust bearing surfaces. I would hope for the best, but expect the worst.

    The pickup has 2 bolts that secure it, the windage has like 4 bolts. Pull off the windage plate and it will be evident which main or con rod bearing is bad. Maybe they are fine? Take pics and post them. Any movement more than slight is where your problem is when you grab the crank or rod.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  13. Sep 16, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Thanks - I can do that. Obviously a lot of things could have gone wrong but the sound is different than the deep thunking noise from the clutch and is coming from higher up. Of course a main bearing has continued to deteriorate then it could be causing more problems up higher. I think Chuck also suggested a piston skirt as a possibility. The clutch thunking noise has sort of disappeared - possibly because the bearing is no longer going bad and is completely non-functional. No telling till I get farther into, and not sure how far I want to go myself. But I can a little farther myself.
     
  14. Sep 16, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Since you have the pan off already I would start there..........do the reverse torquing that I mentioned last time as you want to know as close as possible if the bolts to the rod's and mains were in fact stilled torqued to specifications....simply whatever the torque is on say the mains ( let's say 110 lbs) take your torque wrench and start to try and re-torque them starting at 90 lbs.......if it clicks go up 3-5lbs at a time......until the torque wrench turns the bolt...........were doing this just in case the bearings are fine you can re-install them again and get back to close to where they were running at................I don't really think your going to be able to change the rear seal from underneath...........not and easy task as everything off the nose ( timing chain ) has to come off including the clutch and flywheel.........then the crank has to be able to come down at least .200" to roll the bearings in.......and the seal is even tougher.....................One thing at a time.........just find whats damaged first and then make a plan how to fix it.

    Bearing material is normally what you see as small flakes........piston skirts usually just brake off and will sound like a rod knock sometimes ( with the pan off you should be able to look up into the bores from the bottom with a mirror and light and inspect the skirts) ..........cams shafts & lifters and other hard parts usually show up as finely ground material........like metal flake / microscopic .
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2016
  15. Sep 16, 2016
    47v6

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  16. Sep 16, 2016
    eti engineer

    eti engineer Member

    Great Central...
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    Last time I had the kind of noise you are talking about, I had spun a rod bearing in my 530i. The head cracked and glycol got into the oil pan. Didn't know a thing was wrong until it spun. This is when I dropped the engine out of a 280Z into the bay. I hope you don't have that kind of issue...
     
  17. Sep 17, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Update - oil pan and other stuff removed to view the crank. The oil pick-up screen wasn't filled with pieces of metal, but rather quite a lot of a silver shiny gunk. Actually, the bottom of the oil pan as well as what settled to the bottom of the plastic pan I drained the oil into has sort of light gray/silver sludge. There is also a bit of a unique smell - not quite oily but more like burnt metal (kind of like a welding smell). Its sort of like a graphite or lead in the sense that it smears on your finger and hand when you try to wipe it away. Maybe it was a lead additive some PO put in or maybe it was some sort of engine break in (zinc?) additive from after a rebuild? Or the microscopic metal shavings from something like a lifter? I've changed the oil quite consistently over the last few years myself and never noticed it before in the drain pan but its most prominent in the bottom of the oil pan and I've never taken that off before.

    Looking at the crank etc - all seems fine to the initial untrained eye. No obvious missing bolts etc. I tried pulling and moving stuff by hand, can't get anything to move up or down. I assume there is some sort of bearing at the bottom of the connecting rod - these I can move forward and aft along the crankshaft a mm or so. None of the piston skirts look to have any damage, nor any part of the connecting rods that I can see. I do need to try and turn the crank by and watch some new things come in view - can then get better view into #3 and 5. I will try to check the torque and record. For clarification purpose, the main bearings are for the crankshaft and most obviously identified as where the stamped 36 28 etc is and the connecting rod bearings next to one another in pairs between the main bearings? I should try to get torque info for both of these bearings?

    Here some pics just for reference:
    crank blocks view into 3 and 5
    [​IMG]

    #3 below
    [​IMG]

    #6 below
    [​IMG]

    #1 (right) and 2(Left):
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
  18. Sep 17, 2016
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

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    I'm betting on a cam lobe... :(
    BTW, the compression readings you listed in your first post are pretty good for your elevation.
     
  19. Sep 17, 2016
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
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    Maybe it's me but the #1 rod bearing cap looks misaligned?
     
  20. Sep 17, 2016
    Twin2

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    I have had a lifter not pump up and it makes a hell of a racket . this only happens once and a while . guess it's when engine stopped on that lifter . sometimes it won't pump up for 15 minutes . sitting in driveway clacking clacking clacking . but it always eventuality pumps up and goes away
     
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