Question about Shackles

Update with a question: the first picture is the old 5.75 inch shackles and the second picture is the new 3.25 inch shackles (Warrior). I expected to get more forward angle on the bottom of shackle with the 2.5 inch reduction in length. The front shackles have been torqued to 30 ftlbs, and are definitely free to flex (jumped up and down on bumper to verify). I even loosened them to hand tight and still no forward shackle learn. I have not replaced the rear shackles yet - so the jeep probably has excessive rake, but don't think that could cause the front shackles to stay vertical like this but that is the next step.





My first thought is that the rear spring mount is bound/seized up, not allowing the spring to pivot properly and spring is literally bending/arching to reach the shorter shackle? I also intend to remove the shocks just to make sure they are not having any affect - I may have to go to a 2 inch shorter shock with the lift reduction anyway. Any ideas or suggestions? many thanks

 

yup - I am trying to get away from the vertical shackles and the possibility of getting the shackle reversed and flipped in against the frame - and was hoping shortening the shackles and the movement of the leaf spring up 2.5 inches to the new shackle would also allow the spring to move forward a bit along the circular arc. It might have, but its miniscule - the lateral movement along the circle at a near horizontal radius is minimal.

FWIW - eye to eye length of front springs 40.5 inches as best as I can measure (maybe they were stock length springs arched). Don't think I would be interested to move the spring mounting position forward. The 'best' solution probably is to get correct length springs - I know that depends on lift amount - so for those using a 2-2.5 inch lift (like the BDS system), what would a good eye to eye spring length be? This could get expensive fast

 

Sorry, let me clarify and break my thoughts into 2 parts: 1) What is the ideal length spring eye to eye cord length and 2) possible options to work with current springs.

1) Not sure I have the money to get a brand new or nicely used set of springs, but would still like to know what the ideal set-up would be so I can at least make a decision with some understanding of various trade-offs. From what I am learning the leaf spring eye to eye chord length should be about 2 inches longer that the eye to eye length of the spring/shackle mounts - this would provide the extra distance needed to get the shackle to have the proper alignment. Ideally a lift spring should still have this same eye to eye chord length, but the spring with more arch would be longer when measured along the arc of the spring. I guess the key question then is, if the direct distance between the spring mounts is 38.5 inches for this Jeep, then the ideal spring would is about 40 inches eye to eye chord length? In a perfect world I would buy a 2 inch lift spring that had about a 40 inch cord length (and of course would be more like 43 inches in arc length to accommodate the extra lift) - I assume if you buy a lift spring kit this would be accounted for from a reputable retailer.

2) The measurements for the current springs are 38.5" chord length - which is the same as the mount distance and thus the vertical shackles. Arc length of spring is 40.5+ inches. The spring would have to be mostly un-arched (flat) to provide enough chord length for proper shackle alignment. Can the arch in the leafs be removed by a spring shop - seems like if they can add arch, they could also remove it? Might be a better way to flatten the spring than removing a leaf without changing the spring flex as much. A very small amount of arch of the springs and the 3.25 inch shackles might be enough to clear 31s.

thanks all - this has been super helpful for my understanding

 

"Fino,

I think your over thinking this ........."

Probably true....but seems like one should be able to buy/make aftermarket lift springs that do not cause the shackles to be vertical by having the necessary arch for the lift and the necessary length for the shackle position. Seems like my current springs are designed to be run flat with minimal arch - so trying to use them as a lift spring with extra arch has the problem of being too short.

there is no Ideal eye to eye length other than in your case the stock length between the eyes that Willys engineered into that vehicle.......

I think I understand what you are saying - and that is what I am asking here: How much longer should the spring be than the mount distance to create the correct shackle alignment (I think you have mentioned about 20 degree angle). Seems like that would be accomplished with about 1.5 inch longer spring than mount distance given a reasonable shackle length of around 3 inches or so. For that matter, what did the Willys engineers design (ie stock spring length)?

so lets back up a second and first ask what are you trying to accomplish?

Currently I am trying to lower the vehicle from its current lifted height (approx. 4+ (?) inch lift with both spring and shackle) to a more moderate 2-2.5 inch (clear 31x10.5) lift and hopefully improve handling/steering characteristics with shorter shackles, improved caster (might also need shims) less bump steer, etc.

No one can tell you which way to go unless we know what your looking for?

In short: 'Ideally' I am looking for a spring (not necessarily these springs) that will provide a 2.5 inch lift over stock (which is lowered from current state) without being too short and causing shackle issues. Was wondering if anyone has info on the length of the springs for 2.5 inch lift such as BDS or Rancho or whatever. It just gives me a comparison to work with. My 'ideal' is what would be the best solution if money were not the issue - such as getting new springs. It might be worth the money if that is the root cause of the problems. Otherwise, also looking at solutions that might use current springs - possibly through removing the arch lift to make the spring 'longer'? Not so interested to change the spring mount locations.

Hope this helps!

YES - MANY THANKS and I hope my description is more clear.

Note: Your "Steering Linkage Clearance "thread............. needs to be connected to this "Question about Shackles" as the problem starts here!

Agreed - more reason to shorten the shackles as well as to get correct length springs. Then can look into shims and steering clearance if needed.

 

Dropping down to short shackles did not help as shown in photos - didn't quite drop all the way down to stock 2.75 inch shackles, but dropping from 5.75 to 3.25 had almost no affect. Basically - it does appear the springs are too short for the amount of arc/lift. Shocks are mounted upside down as the shock body doesn't like to fit between the mount and steering stop bolts on the axle. Seems to be somewhat common possibly because newer shocks have larger diameter tubes? Plus, if I can ever get the correct spring and shackles and correct caster, that might create some additional clearance to mount shocks upright.

 

Thanks Tarry -

yes to all the questions - springs are stock 1.75" wide, 5/16 thick leafs with 5 leafs. Any suggestion as to which leaf to remove - the bottom/shortest one? The spring pack does ride stiff as you already inferred - at 160lbs I can jump up and down on the bumper and only get a 2-3 inches of movement so maybe it can support the load. Mechanically removing the arch from the springs isn't really an option - guess it could weaken the spring too much?

I will be on the road (and beach) for most of the next 2 weeks - so my short term plan is to finish putting the shorter shackles on the rear (which seems to have the same overarched, short spring issues as the front) and get it back to drivable. Will also research replacement springs with proper lift and length.

thanks

 

Just for the record - there are 2 ways to measure springs and BOTH need to be used for the correct fit. One is Hole to Hole in a straight line (fit from sitting). The second is along the top spring from Hole to Hole (true spring length). This ensures you have the proper fit at rest and in motion.

I got this from a guy here in the Springs that builds his own springs and runs a suspension shop (where I get my U bolts made).

 

Thanks fellas - have had minimal time to investigate further and will not be able to for another week. Having the proper terminology will help while gathering info. I think my use of the term chord length is probably not standard terminology for automotive practice (would be the same as the length along the datum), and will ensure to clarify the true, along the curve length. It helps when we all speak the same language.

Initial review suggests cost may not be totally limiting - might be able to just replace the springs with proper length and can also get the lift I want with proper length shackles and alignment. Of course, the exhaust system may have to wait for the summer.

 

Just for you to think over, I have both a set of Skyjacker Softrides and BDS springs here on projects. If you want to see them in person before ordering a set.

I also use the Shackles from McRuff on my rigs. He makes those from a pattern I gave him a few years back. I keep a spare set in the box if you want to check them out.

 

Thanks Chuck - I might take you up on that in a couple weeks when my travel schedule settles down. Are both your Skyjacker and BDS set-ups the 1.75" wide leafs? Do you think the two set-ups are pretty comparable or are there some differences? I have gotten only a few recommendations so far, but seems the BDS come with a lot of positive reviews.

thanks

 

Both are the stock 1.75" wide setups. The Skyjacker is for a lighter rig (3A on a 5 frame) and the BDS is for a 5 that will have a hard top on it at some point.

 

Reviving an old thread of mine here as I am back to this project - question is really more about leaf springs...

As my current front leaf springs are too short - front shackles hang vertically - I am basically, wondering if the following springs that I found on CL would work :
A set of front Superlift leaf springs (supposedly never used 4" lift springs) has the following dimensions (under no weight - just sitting on floor):
1.75" wide (appropriate for ECJ)
38" straight line eye to eye
6.5" free arch
20.5" straight line center pin to eye
no info on true spring length (length along the surface of the top leaf)

My jeep has straight line eye to eye measurement of 38.5" between the spring hangers. I assume the superlift springs would begin to flatten under the weight of the vehicle and would lengthen the straight line measurement and help get my shackles at proper forward angle?

thanks all

 

James - measure along the leaf eye to eye, that is the proper way to measure the springs to see if they fit. With that much lift noted, who knows what that may be.