Renegade ID discussion

Discussion in 'Early Jeep Restoration and Research' started by oldtime, Jun 10, 2009.

  1. Jun 10, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Long story........

    I read this ad:

    In my minds eye I could envision all of the Jeeps details......
    This jeep should have large front parking lamps, the late type taillights, a two speed windshield wiper, arched windshield glass........
    My imajination began actively searching the corners of my mind to extract every minute detail thats normal for a 1969 CJ-5.

    I called the seller up to get his input and in almost no time I was on my way to his domain..
    Driving through the countryside I envisioned lots of potential parts for plunder.
    Components I might utilize here or there on one of my favorite projects.
    Besides that I needed to test if my mental picture of a 1969 CJ-5 for accuracy.
    I was soon about to see this jeep and put my imajination to a serious test.

    After locating the garage in a back alley I pulled in. Introductions were short, I went straight to it.
    Well almost, I thought my garage was a mess.
    After wading past everything from baby diapers to chop saws and old pizza boxes, I made it over to the rolling chassis.
    Moving the boxes of clothing about I could now see some detail. My first impressions were somewhat muted.
    The components seemed substantially different from my awareness of the typical 1969 componentry.

    Something very strange about the rear axle.... It was way too heavily built. I saw no indication it was even a model 44.
    Then noticed it was a flanged axle. What is this thing I wondered ?
    Was this an IH Scout axle ?. I measured across its width. I tried to find the axle tags but they were missing.
    The owner stated that he removed them and cleaned them on the wire wheel but they were currently misplaced.
    I asked 4.88 ? and he says no 4.89. No time to linger it was getting dark outside and the light was poor.

    I noticed the front carrier cover was loose, barely hanging on. He tells me the gears look real good. They have no rust.
    Then he tells me how this jeep sat for 14 years in the woods before he bought it.
    I'm thinking this jeep is 40 years old now and he has already accounted for about half its life. That's 14 years sitting outdoors plus 5 in his garage.

    I kept on mentally noting the details I saw.
    I noticed the frame overall has a very light coat of rust and appears perfectly straight except for the front bumper that was obviously tugged on many, many times before. But wait just a minute I never once in my life saw a frame like this one.
    This frame had gussets under every spring pivot bracket. And even the front frame channel was factory boxed all the wat to the bumper.
    Now I am immediately starting to think...Major find ? Something Special ?

    Except for an oil pan/skid plate the engine was a normal D-225. It was nearly complete, missing only the air pump and air filter.
    He said he pop started it before tearing into it and it ran good. I reserved my serious doubts about that manuver.
    I noticed this rig has the cable type clutch control. I was surprized but not floored.
    I had once before seen factory cable control clutch on a 1968 CJ-5.

    Well it was getting dark already so we go over to the next garage to see the body and top.
    I went straight to the serial number plate and wrote the number down.
    Luckily the build date tag was intact and clearly stated SEPT. 1969.
    Immediately I realize this should be a 1970 Jeep shouldn't it ?
    I seriously begin thinking this jeep is something very special. I get this weak sick tremble in my knees.
    He said outloud "the whole jeep was repainted this God awful puke color". That was a fact indeed !
    I was now determined to find its original shade but alas the trim tag is missing.
    After inspecting the grille I see its original paint was definately a bright orange.
    I had no flash light with me and so its time to go home.

    I didn't sleep much that night. I stayed awake pondering over and over just what it was that I saw.
    I came to the estimation he might not know the correct year of the title and was only repeating the build date seen on the dash.
    By now I'm starting to think RENEGADE I .No that's way too rare. Wake up and go to sleep.
    Next day same problem I could not get it off my mind. So I tempered my thoughts .
    Not knowing anything about the 1969 model 462 I fantasized perhaps it could be that.
    Or was this the 1969 CAMPER SPECIAL ? I realized I had to rule out the 1969 Camper Special because this Jeep originally sported a Meyers full cab.
    So I pondered over the possability of the unknown 462 and the rarely seen Renegade I.
    I logged onto the ECJ-5 for facts but the site had just gone down a couple days before.
    No help and that only added to the quessy feeling I could not shake everytime that jeep entered my mind.

    That very next afternoon I could bear it no more I just had to know what I saw.
    Luckily for me he says he was working in his garage that day so I should come on over again.
    Another hour drive time. Time to line up all my ducks in a row.
    I knew I had to rule out RENEGADE I if possible. So when I got there I was ready for more detail.

    First back to the frame for posative ID of the components.
    The axle I estimated it must be a model 44 with flanged shafts A special heavy duty version.
    One well rusted tag still remaioned in original location on the rear axle.
    I surmized from this tags specific location that this jeep is likely equipped with Trac Lok.
    I pulled the cover of the front and numbers 8 ~ 39 confirmed its a 4.88 ratio.
    Then It dawned on me the matching rear would be a 44 ~ 9 or 4.89 ratio
    Next I scoured the unusual power train.
    The transfer case had a very unusual factory system of mounting. The transmission support and TC snubber insulators were not typical.
    What's up I thought I never ever saw that before. Anyway I knew the frame to be special Heavy Duty.
    By the way did I mention the 12 leaf springs on the front and 13 leaf springs on the rear ?
    From reading parts catalogs I new those werre Eaton HD springs.
    And of all things this jeep sported 4 of the original 15" x 8" steel wheels.
    He tells me the 10 X 15 " tires were purported to be the originals by the previous owner.
    One look at those worn out agressive lug tires says yes they certainly could be the original rubber..
    Now its time for me to check the body for Renegade I details.
    Apparently when it was thoroughly painted 20 some years ago a bit of light body work was involved.
    I could find no evidence that RENEGADE I decals had ever been installed. Scars indicated that the hood was worked over somewhat.
    On to the amperes and oil gauges.
    The unique amp gauge was there in its correct location as was the oil pressure gauge. The oil gauge was the original.
    So far this jeep looks as I imasgined a Renegade I should look.

    I made him an offer and left thinking he was wanting to sell.
    On the ride home I recalled that the rear of this jeep sported swing out tire brackets.
    Perhaps the remainder of the carrier was somewere in that pile called a garage.
    Now I am convinced this is just too much coincidence. This must be an original very early built Renegade I.

    I have begun to scour my W 1195 - R 2 for Renegade details I find several items specific to Renegade I and II.
    Two items in particular that catch my attention.
    Of particulart interest is the swing away rear tire carrier that according to the 1971 parts catalog was only for the Renegade I.
    Also I notice that the Renegade jeeps are credited with a distinct wiring harnesses.
    More on this Renegade specific info later.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2009
  2. Jun 10, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Sounds like a cool find Ken. Hope it's all there!
     
  3. Jun 10, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Sorry for the long story guys .
    You know how I tend to get carried away on jeeps.

    O.K. then Mark you say your collecting Renegade data ?
    Here then for starters is the Kaiser serial plate number.
    I think your really going to like this one.
    8305017 361440 :)
     
  4. Jun 10, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Rolled down the line 342 before mine. Thanks for the info!
     
  5. Jun 10, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    So who owns and what is the serial number and buid date of the earliest known surviving Ren I ?
     
  6. Jun 11, 2009
    OverEngineer

    OverEngineer Member

    Iowa
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    I believe I may have the earliest: 360041

    I have the same springs etc.... How do you distinquish the harnesses?
     
  7. Jun 11, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    OverEngineer,
    Forgive me...I don't know anything about your Renegade I, yet I would like to.
    So do you know for a fact that yours is a Renegade I ? Or could yours possibly be one of the forerunner 462's ?

    It has caused me some research but I am virtually convinced that the 1969 Jeep that I recently discovered is in fact a Renegade I and is one of the earliest surviving.
    So it is here with these very earliest purported Renegade I's that we discern the difference from the virtually unknown model 462.

    On another note....
    It has served the purpose very well yet....
    I believe it is time now to forever dismiss the "dealer built" Renegade I theory.

    As previously stated this purported Renegade I that I discovered is serial plate number 8305017 361440 with a confirmed build date of SEPT. 1969.
    I believe someone else on this forum has a purported Renegade I with serial plate # 8305017 361439.
    Now it does not take too much to see that these two purported Renegades came down the assembly line one right after the other.
    I believe that evidence alone should forever dispel the theory that Renegade I's could have been dealer built.
     
  8. Jun 15, 2009
    OverEngineer

    OverEngineer Member

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    I have never subscribed or supported a "dealer built" Ren 1. Although, I don't understand (as I don't know what Kaiser's mfg process was) your specific argument. I also don't know if my 1970 is a Ren 1. At times, I've thought that it may have been a left over 462. Today someone stated that all of the options for a Ren 1 were available individually to all Jeeps. It is very possible I have all the options and that although my CJ looks just like the old photo of a 1970 Ren 1 it isn't. The proof would be (perhaps) if we really knew the color could not have been red. As a fact, all I know is that all of the options are right and it looks like an early 1970 Ren 1. I would love to define it accurately. That's why I asked about the wiring harness. Some folks here think that is an identifier.

    I welcome the opportunity to determine what my CJ really is for sure. Do we know for sure what colors were available for the 1970 ren 1?
     
  9. Jun 15, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Post a pic of where the main wire harness passes through the firewall (engine compartment side). Do you have the paint and trim tag on the passenger side firewall (engine compartment side, above the battery)?
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  10. Jun 15, 2009
    OverEngineer

    OverEngineer Member

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    you can see where the tag was; however, it isn't there any longer. How do I post the photo? what am I looking for
     
  11. Jun 15, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    My comments on the "dealer built Renegade" theory stems from some old archives I read on this forum.

    It seems intuitive that the Renegade I was built after August of 1969. I currently believe any Jeep built before then is not a Renegade I.
    Therefore if we can identify your exact build date via serial plate number sequence that can help to prove or disprove the specific model year.

    Has anyone one ever posted the 1971 AMC W-1195 R2 Parts Catalog information concerning the Renegade I + II ?
    I do have it if you remain interested. That information is certainly helpful in understanding of the early Renegades.
    I have studied enough Jeep parts catalogs to envision that certain items are RENEGADE SPECIFIC.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  12. Jun 15, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    See this thread: http://www.earlycj5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39619 there should be a sense resistor for the ammeter attached to where the main harness goes through the firewall. Right now attachements are disabled, but if you have space on the web (like photobucket or your ISP) you can display the image in your post.


    I for one would really like to see your R2 parts catalog! :)

    With most all the individual options available directly from the factory or as replacement parts, it would have been fairly easy to convert a non-Renegade I to a Renegade I. Renegade IIs that lack a tailgate would be more difficult to convert. I think it would be difficult to determine if it came from the factory as a Renegade as there is nothing unique in the serial number and nothing that couldn't have been added later. IIRC, most of the Renegades have a special sales order tag below the paint / trim tag, so maybe they weren't a normal option package but rather a unique special order.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2009
  13. Jun 16, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Mark,
    Thanks for posting that link about the Renegade I Mystery Wiring.
    And thanks to each and every one of you who took the time to post it.
    That is certainly critical information regarding Renegade identification.
    By the way the Renegade II will utilize that exact same wiring.

    I'll post all the W - 1195 R2 Parts Catalog details as soon as practicle.
    It's a shame I don't have a copy of the W -1195 R1 Parts Catalog that was issued in Dec of 1970. It's extremely rare, I've only ever seen two copies.

    In case anyone is wondering the R2 in the description 'W - 1195 R2 stands for revision number two, not Renegade II.
     
  14. Jun 17, 2009
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    like all superceded manuals, they were tossed as soon as the new one was received.
    W-1195 R2 here
     
  15. Jun 17, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    I did a google search and found W - 1195 posted on another forum. Is W - 1195 R2 the complete parts manual, or only the Renegade specific parts?

    I've got this one:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Jun 17, 2009
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    It didn't help matters when Willys, Kaiser and AMC told the dealer service and parts departments to dispose of the superceded publications.

    The W-1195 Universal Parts List (UPL) was issued in December of 1967 by Kaiser Jeep Corporation. It is a very desireable reference.
    It has a numerical index system that was later deleted with the AMC publications.

    The W-1195 R1 Universal Parts Catalog (UPC) was issued by Amercian Motors Jeep Corporation in December of 1970.
    This was quickly replaced by the W-1195 R2 UPC in March of 1971.

    The AMC 74072 Parts Catalog as shown in your pic replaced the two AMC UPC's.
    In my opinion when AMC took over all publications started going downhill.

    I have much more info on original publications, but I don't want to get into that here and now.

    Due to the publication timeline the "(Renegade)" information which is found in the W-1195 R1 might be specific to the Renegade 1.
    That would be of great help to compare it with the W 1195 R 2 which includes both Renegade I and Renegade II detail.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009
  17. Jun 18, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    My manual indicates parts as Renegade / Except Renegade where a specific item was only available on the Renegades. Parts that are part of the Renegade package but also available as options are not differentiated. There are very few items that are Renegade specific in my manual. Interestingly, the roll bar padding kit is specified as Renegade II only.

    IIRC from our discussions here, there were very few differences between the Renegade I and the Renegade II. The only ones that come to mind are the lack of tailgate on the Renegade II, aluminum wheels vs 15X8 steel wheels of the Renegade I, and color options. We've seen some examples of early 1971 models configured as Renegade I's instead of Renegade II's.

    I've tried to keep my eye out for Renegade I / II print ads or marketing material, but have never found any.
     
  18. Jun 18, 2009
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    our old parts manager may have the R1 book
    that means it might be available to me
    he never threw anything away...
    I'll check and report back
     
  19. Jun 18, 2009
    Zoomer

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    Thanks Jim, that would be great! :beer:
     
  20. Jun 18, 2009
    OverEngineer

    OverEngineer Member

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    Re: Amazing Discovery !

    I have the photograph and can send it to anyone. I don't know about photobucket. My resistor is vertically oriented mounted to the left of the gromit ring. The resistor is fed by a light green wire. The gromit ring is formed to hold the screw that holds the resistor. The link was fantastic help. Data like that is AWSOME. Who should I send the photo to for authentication? Based on help from folks here and the data from the Vin/Serial number document. My jeep was built in early Aug 1969 #360041.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2009

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