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New proud member, will need your help with my 72 commando

Discussion in 'Jeepster Commando and Commando Tech' started by KeyserSoSay, Sep 3, 2017.

  1. May 10, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    Thanks again. I spent most of the night last night trying to absorb as much Youtube University Correspondence classes (relative to this topic) as possible. It seems obvious now that the single stage paint is exactly how I need to proceed for this Jeep project. If I get 2 gallons of this paint (and do like you said which is to mix the two gallons together and then re-split it- which is exactly what I did with the Raptor-liner tint I had bought) it should last long enough to complete my entire project even if it drags on for another year or even 2 (God forbid!)- The hardeners/activators and reducers used are pretty universal and interchangeable and would not change the color or consistency of the paint as applied. (correct?)

    I'm also trying to make sure I have a good understanding of what type of primer I need under this paint, the door I've completed has an etching primer, and I have a 1K filler primer on the tailgate. It looks like I need to find an appropriate 2k primer that will work with the Eurothane single stage paint, and I'll need to make sure there won't be any problems spraying that over the existing primers I have on now, or else potentially have to remove what's on there now (ouch!)

    I think it might be a good tact for me to go ahead and be able to paint out the doors, tailgate, hood, front fenders, hardtop, etc. as I complete the repairs and body work on each of them, and then I would be able to reassemble the jeep and maybe do a final wet-sand/buff/and polish once the Jeep is put back together... Does this sound asinine to you guys who have done this stuff before?? If so, what am I missing in terms of the problems this would create ? My biggest worry is that the paint would not match for some reason- if this is not a concern, then I can't see any drawbacks to doing it this way, please chime in if I'm missing something.

    The only reason to look to do it this way (in my mind) is that I could paint and then reconstruct the doors for example, and store them in a complete fashion where I'd simply need to rehang them down the road. Same with the tailgate and hatch, I could reinstall the rubber, latches, and glass, and then reinstall them as a whole when the body is complete. I just have such a limited space and would prefer to unexplode all these parts back into completed modular units as I go.

    I recognize that my methods so far have been very counter-intuitive compared to other builds I've seen. It seems that usually folks strip the body down to a naked tub/frame, and then build and repair stuff as they put it all back together and then paint it all at once... My tact so far has been to remove Item A, rebuilt item A, resurface item A, store item A, and then repeat for Item B... Now is the time for me to determine how that method will be applied to painting....
     
  2. May 10, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member Sponsor

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    Sounds like a solid plan the reducer won’t change the color but it will affect the smoothness of the finished product. Sorry to say but ditch the 1k stuff and use 2k.
     
  3. May 10, 2018
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    From my reading, it seems the body shops like to use the etch because it's fast. The hot rod crowd likes 2K epoxy primer as a first coat. I've only used the SPI epoxy, but it worked very well for me. Put your 2K primer surfacer over that, if you use any. It's basically a spray-on bondo that helps you block the panels. If you don't care about blocking, spray right over the epoxy. Automotive Refinishing | United States | Southern Polyurethanes
     
  4. May 10, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
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    Agreed, I used the 1K on the tailgate because it was cheap and easy and is such a high build it cleans up a lot of flaws. I'm going to make sure from here on out all my primer I use is the 2K stuff that is specifically compatible with the paint I'll be using. My main question is whether I'll have issues spraying the 2K primer over the top of the existing stuff I've used. Intuitively, primer over primer over primer should not be a problem, but occasionally I'll read something to the effect "this stuff (product X) is not compatible with Product Y, and I lack the vocabulary yet to keep track of all the nuances.

    Just as an example, I don't yet understand the difference between SPI epoxy and 2K primer that Timgr delineates above. Intuitively, 2K means generically "two-part" or a chemically hardened primer which my brain tends to characterize as epoxy primer. (or maybe I just misunderstand or oversimplify this?) So I obviously have more studying to do..

    I have a very swiss-cheese understanding as I used to work in a paint and body shop decades ago (when I still needed a fake ID to get in the bar). I picked up some skills there that I didn't even realize until recently. It was actually a fabrication shop building truck bodies: (cranetrucks, firetrucks, oilfield service trucks) and I got lots of different experience from nuts to soup that would help a Jeep builder, but I was never really exposed (as an elbow-grease underling) to the chemistry involved in any of the coatings I was sanding and spraying.

    Don't worry- I don't intend to try and make you guys fully educate me through the posts of this thread, that's too much to ask. I just mean to continue to come back here and express the state-of-the-art of my current knowledge and give you the chance to call BS on me when you see that I've run off track..

    It always helps a guy feel better about his understanding and tactics when he gets confirmation from someone (often anyone) else who has already done it.
     
  5. May 10, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member Sponsor

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    I wouldn’t put a urathane 2k primer over that 1k stuff. I’ve found it shrinks into those spots you filled later. All you need is a urethane filler primer and a urethane single stage finish. All urethanes are 2k.
     
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  6. May 10, 2018
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Epoxy is just a type of polymer. You could have 2K epoxy, urethane, or polyester primers - and likely others like acrylic or? 2K means you add a separate catalyst, typically an isocyanate compound, that permanently cross-links the polymer. Once cross-linked, it no longer dissolves in solvent. So there's a flash where the solvent dries out, and a set where the cross-linking completes. Is there a 1K epoxy? I don't know. I know that the epoxy primers continue to harden over the course of several days, and once completely hard, they must be scuffed to accept a top coat.

    Your 1K primer should come off with a scotchbrite and reducer or lacquer thinner.
     
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  7. May 10, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    sounds like good advice and I'll likely remove the 1k primer from the tailgate before moving forward just to be safe... Should I consider doing the same for the "etching primer" I used on the driver's door? Not even sure what kind of primer I put on the back hatch, some kind of rattle can, I assume it will also need to be removed before I move forward (mainly I just didn't want it sitting in bare metal, I never considered that I'd have to take it off before I could paint though..):gaah:.

    Next order of business will be a good 2k urethane filler primer that I can use on all of my body parts going forward. the goal being the ability to prime, set aside (for potentially weeks or months), and then fine sand or block sand right before painting with another quick coat of fresh primer (or sealer) and then a urethane single stage paint.

    I wish we'd of had this conversation a few months ago, but glad we're not having it a few months from now....:beer:
     
  8. May 10, 2018
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Don't know about the etch. It should have a spec sheet that tells you what the window is and what can go over it. You could ask the maker of the product. If I didn't know what product it is, I'd sand it off and start over.

    Rattle can you should be able to clean off with lacquer thinner and another scotchbrite. Supposedly it's a mistake to paint over surfaces that were cleaned with anything but your reducer or a compatible oil and grease remover. One of the old time body men posting at IFSJA specifically advised to use cheap rattle can to stop rust until you are ready to paint. Then clean it off when you are ready and prime, block and paint.

    The SPI products are very well regarded. The SPI epoxy is widely used by the hot rodders as a sealer. It should accept just about any 2K primer or top coat you put over it. SPI will answer your questions. My SPI distributor is great - I order and he drops the product on my front porch as he makes his rounds.

    If you need more advice, the paint forum on autobody101.com has helped me a lot.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2018
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  9. May 10, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member Sponsor

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    this is the key event for long life, this is why the 1k stuff is bad. a strong enough coating will re soften the primer.98 percent of the finish is the prep.
     
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  10. May 11, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    :bananatool:Fresh Payday!!:bananatool:

    God I hated to do it... but I went ahead and ordered all the rubber trim and molding I needed to complete these doors out, including the $200 vent-window rubbers. (Purchased from PartsDude) I really tried to bring the old ones back to life, and one of them was in pretty good shape, but the other one was split and I would have seethed over it for months and years on end had I not just replaced it.

    The rubber "sash" filler was pretty cheap ($2.50/ft) until I started adding up that I needed 20ft. of it to be safe, so all told I dropped $85 on that stuff and the mohair for the rear door runner (shipped) from RubberTheRightWay.

    [​IMG]




    OK..

    Bummer...:cry:


    "We're Sorry. That concludes your Jeep budget for this Pay Period, Congratulations, you lasted [6] hours and [32] minutes before being Jeep broke again for another two weeks. But at least you have [ :gaah:rubber trim:gaah:] to show for it......"


    :waiting:



    But the good news is I've plenty to do in the coming weeks that wont cost me anything but time and elbow grease!!:shrug:
     
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  11. May 11, 2018
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

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    When you stated you want to use a single-stage paint, and then paint parts separately, like doors, tailgate, etc. Are you getting a metallic or mica color, or a solid (non-metallic) color?
    The reason I ask is metallics usually need to be sprayed as an overall vehicle (fully assembled) to make the panels all look the same. The metallics can have color shifts if painted separately and not all in the same orientation. Solid colors are not sensitive to color variences like metallics.
    Base coat/clear coat are easier to get metallics to lay correctly, but still should be sprayed overall for best effect.
    I'm also a fan of the SPI epoxy primer that Tim mentions for durability over bare metal, and use a 2k primer surfacer over the epoxy.
    -Donny
     
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  12. May 12, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    Thanks Donny, and yes I’m certainly planning a solid paint. I do understand enough about spraying paint to stay away from metallics or pearls, especially for a single stage paint where my only recourse to overcome the (inevitable) bugs, dust, runs and orange peel of a driveway paint job will be wet-sand/buff/and polish. (Which the metallic paints would not like) Honestly, I think when it comes to a base/clear, even a solid paint could more easily have matching issues if not sprayed all at once. I may be wrong, but I’m not an experienced enough painter to concider attempting a base/clear paint job in piece-mill.

    I think the single stage (Solid) will give me the best opportunity to paint parts seperately over time, then install rubber/glass/periferies, bolt it all together, and then block/buff/polish the outer larger surfaces for a matching quality finish. This will let me have all the seams, firewall, window channels painted and not masked off repeatedly or in a half-ass fashion or over-sprayed.

    Part of my issue is just a limited space and only having a small confined area that would serve as a potential “paint booth” environment. I honestly feel I could get a higher quality paint job if I take on a few smaller pieces at a time, and then do the main body as my grand finale.

    I rarely see builds done this way so I suspect I’m missing something, but my thought is with a single stage paint I could always repaint the main-outer surfaces (below the drip-rail) and have them still match well all of previously painted nooks and crannies.

    Does this sound like a reasonable tact, or does it sound like I’m inviting disaster?

    Also, you guys have certainly got me looking at the SCI primers and paint.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  13. May 12, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    Ok, now It’s official, took me less then 16 hours to spend every spare Jeep-eligible dime of my paycheck.

    I also ordered this set of universal sliders for my seat brackets. They should work out, and are only 1” tall. The sliders on the seats lifted the seats about 4 inches which made them too tall.
    [​IMG]

    I also bought another one of these horrible bastards while they can still be had. With the parts from two of these, I feel comfortable that I can keep powder flowing for the duration of this Commando project at least. One of these days I may sand-cast an aluminum casing for this gun and build some more durable powder chambers..
    [​IMG]

    Actually, I’m looking to scratch-build a custom gun. I’m studying to find the main component ( the positive charger box) and may build several. These are dead simple really, 120v converted to 24volts (in the standardized power cable) a variable speed switch, 24volt blower fan, mixing powder chamber with offset inlet and outlet (how great if you could build these out of a plastic gatoraid bottle for $1 a dozen?), ionic charging probe, and a black voodoo box that converts 24volt power to create a positive charging field via the probe...

    I’ll likely build a half dozen or so of these when the time comes and try to recoup my investment by selling some. I did the same thing when building my foundry furnaces (Built 5 of each, sold 4) and ended up making a few bucks and having leftover materials for future projects. It’s only about 10% more labor to build two of something.

    Still time for a venture capitalist to get in on this.....:sneak: Maybe we’ll build a half million of them...

    (Add a little marketing... I’ve still got folks e-mailing me wanting these “Lil Hothead” furnaces..)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  14. May 13, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    100
    So sorry to keep harping on the powder coater, but for those interested- I found the special voodoo box that makes these work, and they are not that pricy. It’s called a negative Ion generator, and this one I linked below (15kV) is about on par with most of the DIY powder guns on the market.

    Get a cheap Shultz-gun air sprayer (and modify it a bit), and this black box (and a 12V power converter cable and a switch or trigger) and you’re in business.

    10-20 lbs of air is all you need, actually better to use a small airbrush compressor in my opinion.

    I’m still looking to build mine airless, and use instead a 12V blower fan similar to the Craftsman tool.

    Electronic Goldmine - Super Power 12VDC to 15kV Negative Ion Generator



    Anyway, I’ll try to let it die and stick to Jeep stuff from now on..
     
  15. May 14, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
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    Here is one other thing folks would need if attempting to restore the Commando doors as I am..

    In order to remove, restore, replace the vent windows and vent window molding, you have to drill out some small rivets and also remove (destroy) the window pivot rivets which are a special shouldered rivet.

    I thought I was going to end up having to fabricating something to replace these (or JB Weld them) but I’ve recently learned that these rivets were pretty standardized across manufacturers. So while there are no sources to replace “Jeep” vent window rivets, there are places to find Chevy or GM rivet sets, to include the special Pivot Rivets.. I’ve not seen any threads where anyone’s used these to fix a Commando, but several that have used them for a other full size Jeep model vent windows of the era.

    Here is the best vendor I’ve found for these so far. Don’t forget the rivet tool. I’ve got several rivet setting tools but I’ll be buying this one anyway to ensure a perfect crimp-roll, as you only get one shot at making these right.

    [​IMG]

    Vent Pivot Rivets - pr-Classic Chevy Truck Parts


    [​IMG]

    Vent Assembly Rivets-Classic Chevy Truck Parts

    Vent Rivet Setting Tool-Classic Chevy Truck Parts
     
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  16. May 14, 2018
    OzFin

    OzFin Vintage Jeep Guy

    Michigan
    Joined:
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    452
    [QUOTE="KeyserSoSay,
    I also ordered this set of universal sliders for my seat brackets. They should work out, and are only 1” tall. The sliders on the seats lifted the seats about 4 inches which made them too tall.
    [​IMG]
    [/QUOTE]


    Where did you get the seat sliders from ?
    Oz
     
  17. May 14, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
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    E-bay. There are many vendors selling the same set of sliders, the one I went with sold me two for about $55 shipped.

    These are only 1” tall and 14” long. The latching bar across the middle can be narrowed, widened, shortened, bent, or completely replaced to suit your conditions.

    I don’t have them here yet so I want to be carful overselling them in case they turn out to be a turd.

    universal seat sliders | eBay


    My passenger seat bracket sits 1-to-2 inches higher than my driver’s seat bracket. I may choose to only install the slider on the driver’s side. We’ll have to see, but that’s why I need these now to figure it all out and get them mounted so I can move on.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
  18. May 15, 2018
    OzFin

    OzFin Vintage Jeep Guy

    Michigan
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
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    Thanks for the info. :beer:
    I will be eagerly watching how these work out for you, I am 6'-2" and could use some additional legroom in my 70 Jeepster.
    Oz
     
  19. May 16, 2018
    KeyserSoSay

    KeyserSoSay Member

    Edgewood New Mexico
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2017
    Messages:
    100

    Keep in mind the OEM Jeepster seat brackets are curved (I just discovered) and the OEM slider is also curved (discovered at the same time)..

    I'll take a picture of it later and send it to you...

    good news for you is I happen to have a spare OEM curved slider I could give you if you're interested in it (and I also have a (poorly) modified driver's seat bracket I could pass on) .
    (thank JACKDOG for starting off the karma train in this thread:beer:)
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2018
    OzFin likes this.
  20. May 16, 2018
    OzFin

    OzFin Vintage Jeep Guy

    Michigan
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2007
    Messages:
    452
    I appreciate the offer and may take you up on it but I am going to wait and see how your replacement sliders work out for you.
    Also, thanks for the link to "Rubber The Right Way", I ordered the mohair from them and it fits perfectly.

    Nice build thread with great pictures (y)
    Oz
     
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