Axle Q's

I'm full swing into collecting parts for the 3B. (even got a line on another diesel motor)

I've got two Dana 44's w/5.38 gears. One 10-spline the other is 19. Can I upgrade these to 30-spline 1-pc. axles? Full-float options w/ 1-pc shafts? I will be running fairly wide 33's and a locker. Not sure the tapered axles are up to this.

 

thought Warn made a kit for the offset 44......... The other option is to FIND a offset 44 from a 70-71 with the flanged axles.

 

You've got some options here. I believe it is Moser Engineering that makes replacement 30 spline flanged axles that will fit in our tapered axle housing. Stock 30 spline units will NOT fit due to bearing issues. Warn makes a Full Float conversion that is stronger than stock. You can also build your own. I believe there is a write up on this site about it and Dr. Vern did one on his site also at Vernco.com. If you go to 30 spline axles you will need to replace the diff case (commonly called a carrier). The 30 spline side gears will not fit in the 19 or 10 spline case. The 10 and 19 spline side gears fit in the same case, 30 spline is different. These are readily available however. May be a good time to switch to a limited slip or locker. 19 spline full float axles hold up quite well to abuse with lower power of a V-6 and lockers, but that also depends on driving style. I've got 19 spline full float in the '59 CJ-5 with lock right and modified Buick 231 V-6 and it's held up with no problems for about 8 or 9 years of hard wheeling. If I was starting from scratch I'd go to 30 spline axles as they are stronger. Also, by the time you build your own full float kit you will be in it almost as much as a Warn kit unless you can do some of the machine work yourself and happen to have most of the parts laying around. I built mine before Warn's kit came out and it was one of the best conversions I've done. I also went to rear disc brakes at the same time. Dutchman Motorsports have the full float axle prints on file and can build them for you. Their # is 503-253-6648. Nickmil.

 

Thanks all.

I knew about the warn FF kits. My concern with them is I have heard they have a tendency to beat the hubs/drive flanges apart over time. If I go with a FF I'd prefer 1-pc shafts like those found on heavy trucks. I may not get what I want, as if that's something new

Nickmil, that's what I wanted to know about the spline counts. If I have to change cases, by expensive axles, set up new gears, etc., I guess I'll live with the 19-spline until I break it or happen on a 70-71 axle.

 

I am building my own full floater. I started researching and gathering parts about two years ago so I will come out cheaper than normal.
Parts I am using is the offset stock D44 housing out of a 60 Cj3b, Yukon D44 30 spline full spool, Yukon 5.38 gears. For the outer setup I have D30 76-77 CJ disc brakes, hub, and spindle.
The D30 spindle will need the inner lip milled down so it fits inside the Opening of the rear axle. And for an inner seal to keep the axle oil out of the hub assembly I used the inner seals for a D44 30 spline front. They fit the outer D44 rear tube a little tight but will seal great.
The down side is that when you get it complete you will have ot custom order the axles from Moser and I do not have a current price on these.
If you have some of these parts aready you can do this quite easily and I believe this will be alot stronger than stock or the Warn kit. Plus I have the same hubs all the way around. My $.02 if you want more info PM me. When I am done I plan to do a write up for the ECJ5.

 

Never heard of full float axles beating the hubs apart. I have never had an issue other than my own stupidity on my rear and its 4 yrs old or so. I really doubt you could destroy a driveflange as its just a chunk of steel.

As for axles, I bought some off the shelf warn rear shafts and they were only $93 a piece. Not bad. I don't think a simple shaft thats splined on both ends is really that hard to make. I would bet several aftermarket axle manufactures have blanks ready to be machined allready on the shelf.

If you want to go flanged axles for your full floater it will cost more and you'd have to use either external locking hub wheel hubs or dana 60 full float spindles and hubs(8 lug). I prefer the driveflanges, but its alot easier to flat tow with locking hubs.

I added it all up and if you find all the parts in the junkyard and can do the work yourself you can save some money. However its much easier and not that much more expensive to just buy the warn kit.

Just my slightly off topic .02
Kevo

 

Coby, Your set up will not be stronger than the Warn kit. Warn kits are 30 spline inner and outer. Yours will be 30 spline inner with the shaft necked down to 27 spline with a smaller diameter shaft on the outer end, plus you will be using an external spline hub that is weaker than the internal spline hub Warn uses. With the Warn kit you can also go with drive flanges which are stronger than hubs. You will also need to machine the INSIDE of the spindle as well as the back. If you don't, the natural flexing of the housing and spindles will cause contact of the shaft and spindle and cause catastrophic failure. Seen it happen. If you don't machine the spindle then the axle will have to be necked down for a longer distance creating a weaker axle yet. Like I said in my post above, I was involved directly in building these kits before Warn was. The shop I worked for was consulted BY WARN when they decided to build their own kit. The very first Warn FF prototype kit was tested on my Boss's 3B.
By the way, I've never busted a hub on mine. I've seen some break but usually due to people doing things like pulling stumps, high horsepower/big tires, stupid driving, or bent housings. The drive flanges are just chunks of steel with splines on them and can wear out over time, but never heard of one breaking. That may be a cheaper alternative to a solid one piece flanged floater axle. I've seen people build their own kits and use drive flanges with good success.

One other thing I should add, If you go with external spline hubs, nothing wrong with that if building own kit, make sure you run a strong hub with a good strength alloy hub, and make sure you use studs and locking nuts to retain them and not bolts. The natural movement of the hub body against the bearing hub over time causes the bolts to work loose. If you use a good thread locker on the studs, make sure the threads are clean in the bearing hub (clean with a tap and then brake cleaner), and use a good locking nut, either nylock style of aircraft pinch style, you should have little problem. Nickmil.

 

nickmil could you please provide a link to a Warn FF kit for the Dana 44 off set in the early jeeps because all I can find is the 19 spline kits for my application. That was the basis for the "stronger" comment.
As to milling the inside of the spindle I am not sure what the problem is there because the axle will be trussed and there should be little flex in the housing.
The external spline locking hub I plan to use as a fuse in the system since I believe it will break before the axleshafts or the driveshafts. I could be wrong I am not an expert.
Thanks for the advice on using the studs and locking nuts. I have been debating that for some time. I think I will go with the aircraft fine thread pinch nuts, I trust those over the nylock that could melt if things got hot for some reason.
I just did this because I have never done anything even close to build your own. Kinda of a bolt-on guy myself, just wanted to see if I could do it. Plus nothing "bolts-on" a 3b.

 

Coby the flexing is inevitable. The axle is gonna flex on its own as soon as you put power to it. Also if I remember correctly the clearance on the axle to the inside of the hub is less than a 1/32"-1/16" of inch, this is not enough to keep from dragging the axle in the spindle. Oh and when you truss an axle, if it's done right you actually pre-stress it the opposite direction a little which will also take up part of the clearance you have in the spindle, even before you apply power and flex it more.

 

So I guess having an axle built like this is not going to work???
Mike thanks for volunteering to help when it comes time to truss the axle
If all else fails I do have the Warn FF rear I bought from Dan Just would have to start all over and would not be able to sell it to firefightermike.

 

The corner where the small diameter meets the splines is gonna be a weak spot and thats definately where it will break. If you can find a spindle that will have enough material in it to bore out and still have some meat to it, that would help alot.

 

OK I may been huntn' up the wrong tree but the D30 spindle I may be able to bore .010, that would give a 1.285 bore size, maybe able to get that to 1.290. That would make the smallest diameter of the shaft 1.260.
I know the 27 spline outer area it going to be the weak link, in fact I am counting on that so if it does break I do not have to fish around in the diff for parts. Also with chromemoly moser axles I still think I will break a hub first. If you think I am wrong let me know.

 

Are dana 44 spindles any different or is that to big.

 

Little bigger, but I don't think I can use the 77 D30 hubs, rotors and brake set up with those??
I may be wrong on the diameter of the 27 spline outer shaft. Did this quick one day. Look at this.
http://www.earlycj5.com/tech/axle/d44FFDIY/index.shtml

 

Isn't there another option. Perhaps nickmil can comment on this. Doesn't the warn kit use scout internal spline wheel hubs and aren't they installed on whats basicly a d30 spindle? I may be wrong. They only question then is if the hub spaces the drum correctly out from the backing plate. Of course you could easily go disk at this point.

I thought the D30 spindle bore was the same as the d44 as they use the same size stub shaft diameters.

BTW, the axle housing will flex as soon as you put weight on it.

Kevo

 

Here is an interesting link.

http://bc4x4.com/tech/2002/ff9/

I think a trussed 35 spline high pinion 9" would be a sweet way to go!R)

Although, I mostly just posted the link for more spindle info.

Kevo

 

Warn makes a 30-spline FF kit for the offset D44's. It's listed for the '69-'71 CJ's. Part number 61756. That's what I'm running in my '66, which originally had 19-spline tapered shafts.

Here's Warn's FF Kit application list...
http://www.warn.com/truck/axles/rear_axle_app.shtml

 

Never said it wasn't possible to do. That's what I'm running in my CJ-5 right now. Use the Dana 30 disc brake spindle if at all possible as it has the most material where the inner bearing rides as it uses a larger diameter bearing. I used the drum brake spindles because it was what I had and have had no issues but the disc brake spindle is definitely stronger. All I was saying is that it is not as strong as the Warn set up due to the shafts on the Warn kit not necking down and they use internal splined hubs instead of external which are inherently stronger. You also have to bore the id of the spindle to accept the floater shafts. Very do-able. I machined the i.d. of the spindle to 1.280" and the back to 2.875". Depending on wear in the end of your housing it might be a slight interference fit into the housing which is a good thing. Depending on the spindle you may machine into the slot somewhat where the bearing thrust washer goes. This is no big deal as it is not a high stress area. The inner bearing is what takes the majority of the abuse. I machined my spindles to that i.d. so I could slide out my axles without having to pull the bearing hubs and spindles if I didn't want to or if I ever broke anything. In retrospect, It hasn't been together for 9 years, it's been more like 10 or 11 since I built that rear axle with my own floater kit, disc brakes, Warn ZA bodied premium hubs, and the Lock rite. Have had no problems except occasionally having to re-seal the hub body to the bearing hub due to seepage, but this is pretty normal for me as I used used bearing hubs and the locking hub surface wasn't in the greatest of shape. It only happens on the passenger side so I attribute it to less than stellar parts I had available to me at the time. I also did not seal the gear oil from the locking hub and bearings, I let the gear oil lube everything and really have surprisingly little leaking issues. I've found my bearings have lasted longer and run much cooler. One other thing, if your axle housing tubes have tiny vent holes in them like mine did, you will need to seal or you will have a leak from the housing tube.
Nickmil.

 

This has been a great thead more information and questions answered about something I'd been wanting to do. Thanks guys