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198 Fireball V6

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Sparky74cj, Jan 16, 2011.

  1. Jun 26, 2016
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Yes, they are different. Novak is wrong. Maybe they are thinking of the later 231 V6 and 225, which have the same bell pattern.

    Not sure, but I would expect the transmission-side pattern of the 198 and 225 bells to be the same. Don't know if they are the same depth, but it's likely they are. The engine-side bolt patterns are clearly different. If the transmission-side pattern is the same, and the depth is the same, the 225 uses a common BOP (Buick-Olds-Pontiac) GM bell, and a BOP bell should be easy to find.

    Just FYI - better to start a new thread with your question than to revive an old thread.
     
  2. Jun 26, 2016
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    The 198 has a different bolt pattern from the 225/231 at the back of the block, though it is shared by the Buick 215 alloy V8 of the same era, and the Rover 3.5 through 4.6 alloy block V8 from the late '60s through early 2000's.
    The 198 had at least two GM bellhousings for the manual trans. One had the wide 4-bolt pattern for the Muncie/T-10, and the other had a dual pattern for the Muncie and then one for the small Borg Warner used for our T90. Yes, with the 4cyl input shaft, that bellhousing mates the 198 (or 215 V8) right on to our T90.
    I'm not sure of the trans bolt patterns of the T98, but if any variations share the Muncie or smalll BW pattern, there is a factory bellhousing that may help with your conversion.
    -Donny
     
  3. Jun 26, 2016
    Jeeper Dave

    Jeeper Dave New Member

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    That's What I was thinking.
     
  4. Jun 26, 2016
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    So does the Jeep T-90 and the the Jeep T-98 use the same bell? I know the T-98 has a plate adapter between the bell and the transmission, and I would guess that it uses the same iron bellhousing as with the T-90. In that case, if your T-98 mates to one of these special bells that Donny says connects the 198 directly to the T-90, you might want to reconsider the swap. What's wrong with the 198 now? It may be less expensive to rebuild the 198 than to try and adapt the T-98 to the 225, even with expensive parts prices. Or, you could upgrade to a Rover V8... IIRC there were dozens of Range Rovers in the yards during Cash-For-Clunkers. All of these had the sodium silicate treatment, so their engines were scrap, but it indicates how easily you should be able to find an engine donor. Donny might have something to say about that too.
     
  5. Jun 26, 2016
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Yep What Tim said.
    The Jeep T98-A (intended for F134 engines) should bolt directly to a Buick 198 bellhousing.
    That is so long as the Jeep T98-A front adapter plate is present.
     
  6. Feb 4, 2018
    Jonbbrew

    Jonbbrew Member

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    Do you still have the 198?
     
  7. Jun 1, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    I'm SOOO sorry to bring back this necro-post from 4 years ago, but in looking at my options on my jeep, I want to consider all my possibilities. If I were to tell Herm what I wanted, I'd want to ask for the T98 that is setup for 4-cylinder motors based on your comment above, right?

    I'm confused by this, because my T90C is no longer a T90C because someone took the lower first gear and replaced it with something from a wagon, I think. The swap would have provided a longer output shaft, than the C had for the F134 that was originally in my rig, if I'm reading correctly... (Shrug)

    Can you clarify?

    My T90 has a 2-3" adapter between it and the bellhousing of the 198 V6.
     
  8. Jun 1, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    More than happy to expound on what I said....
    To be honest I have never owned a Buick 198 Fireball but I do understand that it uses the exact same bell housing bolt pattern as the Jeep T90 transmission.
    Therefore the T98 adapter plate should also be a direct bolt up fit to the bellhousing.
    You will have to specify the exact depth of the bell housing itself if you need help determining which if any main drive shafts can be used.
    In other words you will need to determine the exact length or at least the “stick out” length for the naindrive gear.
    Comprendo ?
     
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  9. Jun 1, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Only a T-90A will accept the input gear from a Utility Wagon. This is how you get a long enough stickout for the adapter. You could put the long input into a T-90C, but you'd have to replace the cluster gear to match the input gear and that would make it effectively a T-90A.
     
  10. Jun 1, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    I’m wondering could someone possibly supply a pic showing the rear bolt pattern of the Buick 198 or the 215 bell housing ?
    Would also be very helpful to also supply an exact depth measurement of this bell house.
     
  11. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    I feel like my T90 isn't quite low enough, but maybe I should install tires, locker, suspension refresh and then go take it for a drive and see how it does?
    Goal is to get it on the Rubicon next year.
    I have a VERY gentle driving style and plan to run 31's, but I DO plan on taking the jeep on rocky/rutted trails in a slow, methodical manner.
    Plans:
    1) I already have a 19 splined Detroit soft-locker (full locker) waiting to go in the rear.
    2) 31" x 10.50 x 15 tires - probably aggressive muds or A/T's
    3) 0-1" of lift with fresh springs/shocks and lift shackles

    My question in that regard would be your advice on the cleanest install if I kept the 198 for now. Some type of T98 might just bolt up to both my motor and the Dana18, right? (with a bit of mounting/floor cover modifications and driveshafts, etc.
     
  12. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    You're right. I guess that would depend on whether my rig originally had an f134 or a Dauntless, right? I have 4.27's for sure, so if it was a f134 it would have had a T90C, right? Regardless, I now effectively have a T90a.
     
  13. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Yessir, I'll try to get that measurement.
     
  14. Jun 2, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Factory Dauntless never used the T90 transmissions.
    After November 1962 (into the 1963 model year) all F134 cj’s used T90 C.
    If you have long main drive gear ( input) then you effectively have the T90 J version.
    The longer main drive gear will also be 1.125” diameter in lieu of 15/16” diameter.
     
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  15. Jun 2, 2020
    Bigdaddy13

    Bigdaddy13 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Ok, that makes sense, thanks. Does that potentially larger diameter prevent me from swapping in a T98, or is that just a pilot bearing issue? (Assuming the stickout length is correct)
     
  16. Jun 2, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    The maindrive gear diameter is not the main concern.
    The main concern is stick out length or OAL of the mainfrive gear.
    That’s why the exact bell housing depth is important to know.
    GM, Ford, Jeep Etc all use different depth for various bellhousings.
    And without pics I cannot determine your bell.

    If changing the transmission maindrive gear you must use an appropriate diameter main drive front bearing retainer for the transmission.
    The input shaft diameter also effects the selection of clutch driven disk.
    1-1/8” maindrive gear diameter was very common for GM and also several but certainly not all Jeep applications.
    What is the diameter of your current T90 maindrive gear ?
     
  17. Jun 2, 2020
    Richard in AZ

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    If helpful below are some photos of a 198 bell and the trans that was bolted to a 198.....

    Richard


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Jun 2, 2020
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Very nice pics Richard !
    That setup must have been awesome back in its prime.
    So the transmission pattern on rear of bell housing measures 6-1/4” wide by 4-1/8” top to bottom ?
    And rear bell index bore is 4-1/4” ?
    Are you rebuilding this setup ?
     
  19. Jun 2, 2020
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

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    That looks like one of the old Transdapt adapter bellhousings. They built the adapter to longshaft T-90 directly into the bellhousing when they manufactured them. I've had a couple over the years but it's been a long time.
     
  20. Jun 2, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I agree Nick, I've only seen a couple over the years and that's what I was thinking. The T98 I had on the back of 198 V6 had an adapter plate - it looked home made and I sold it to another member here many years ago back east. I don't even remember his name. He took the Bell, Clutch and T98 from me for his 198 build.
     

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