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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. May 24, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    Here are some photos of other bearings etc....
    Rod bearings (top and bottom shells) for 1 and 2 that share same journal - front is to the right (so 1 is to the right) - guessing the damage to #2 might be 'residual' from #1?:
    [​IMG]

    Here is #1 main - damaged:
    [​IMG]

    Here is #2 main - much less damage - just every so slight feel of something.
    [​IMG]

    Here is the crank....Main 1 has a minor edge that if it was the only issue, I think you could try a little emery cloth and new bearing shells and it might work. 1/2 journal is really only an issue on the #1 side, but its not salvageable. Main 2 is in good shape.
    [​IMG]

    So, mostly I was pulling these for my own interest, but at this point, I don't see any value to continue to do so....The engine has to come out, so might as well start moving in that direction. The 3 options I see going forward (other than just parking it in the corner and forgetting about it for awhile):
    1) disassemble, take the rods (and attached piston as I don't deal with wrist pins) and crank to local shop for resizing and machining etc, and then reassemble. I guess technically the cylinders would need honing?, but....also not sure if this was an oiling issue, what I would need to do about that. Also, has enough metal move around that I need to worry about the cam lobes, cam bearings, oil galleys etc - Guess you could start over with this block, and get it tanked etc, honed, new cam bearing etc, and then reassemble etc - but guessing that would cost as much as other options
    2) buy assembled short block, and put the rest of my stuff on it - my basic build shouldn't have any issues with matching any of the valve train components to the lower end. I sent an inquiry to S&J about short block, but don't think they sell them. Other online suppliers do....not sure who would be the best suppliers.
    3) buy long block or complete crate engine....although I have good heads and whatnot, there is nothing special about the 993 iron heads.....full crate engine probably means going with a TBI vortec set-up...
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2024
  2. May 24, 2024
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
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    S&J long block. Marketplace your heads, dumpster the rest. Btd all this...
     
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  3. May 24, 2024
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
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    No core charge?
     
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  4. May 24, 2024
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Maryland
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    There is like $450, Your core has to be rebuildable. Have to check the fine print
     
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  5. May 25, 2024
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    York, PA
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    Or grab a 5.3 or 6.0 outta the yard. Probably a lot of work to make it work but they run forever. Friend has a 5.3 with just under 400k on it.
     
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  6. May 25, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Jul 18, 2013
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    Frustration, dejection and manic energy aren't really the way to build things, but its a heck of a way to get things torn apart.....a few bolts at the trans cross-member and the 2 engine mount bolts and she'll be ready to slide out tomorrow on the hoist....no point in having a non-functioning engine just sitting in there looking pretty....feel like I've seen this view before...
    [​IMG]
     
  7. May 25, 2024
    Rozcoking23

    Rozcoking23 RUN & GET BIT! 2024 Sponsor

    Stockton, CA
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    I
    James, I feel your pain! My JEEP pretty much looks the same right now.
     
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  8. May 26, 2024
    jeep peep69

    jeep peep69 Member

    redding ca.
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    That was probably caused by debris in the oil galley in the center of the crank. it got washed down to the end and came out the #1 rod and main ports
     
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  9. May 27, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Seems to be the prevailing thought....possibly a bur on the crank orifice....either way it hurts...
     
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  10. May 27, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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  11. May 28, 2024
    3b a runnin

    3b a runnin Active Member 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    virginia
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  12. May 28, 2024
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Northern California
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    It's a basically stock SBC.....
    Someone locally should be able to turn or replace the crank, resize the rods, hot tank the block and assemble it.
    Heads are fine, pistons are fine, bores are fine, cam and timing set are fine, rods just need sized and crank needs repaired or replaced.
    I can't picture that costing as much as sourcing a new engine, paying shipping, paying core charge..... ect.....
     
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  13. May 30, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Leonard (OWF) said about the same....heck, I don't mind doing assembly again myself....but finding local machine shop to do their end of the work isn't that easy.....

    To have some budget in mind, I called S and J engine in Spokane - they are known in the jeep community for building Buick v6 engines, along with 4.0s and 4.7 strokers etc. When it comes to buying a crate engine, I'd probably start there.....Anyway, I called about getting an assembled short short block to replace mine. For $1585 you get the short block assembled - including the crank, rods, pistons, rings, cam (flat tappet) and timing set, and new lifters to go with the new cam (and a minimal warranty). I could then re-use my existing (freshly built, but nothing special) iron heads, and intake. There is a $350 core charge on top of that, but I should be able to get core refund for mine. Funny thing is, for an additional $300-400, you get the long block (so add in basic iron heads), you get the better warranty. Its almost like buying insurance. Not saying I am committed to this route, but its something to thing about....lead time is 8 weeks (and I am spending a significant chunk of that 8 weeks up north in Alaska where I wont be working on any jeeps).

    S and J are somewhat local to me - about a 6hr drive (400 miles) - so I could do pick-up and drop the core off at same time. That saves me quite a bit of shipping cost ($425 including return core shipping). I do have to pay WA sales tax (no sales tax if delivered to MT), which will run me about $150 when all is said and done. Add that to the $140 in gas for total of just under $300. So its not really that much of a savings, but friends and family live in Medical Lake, WA just outside of Spokane, so wife might be happy to combine it with a 'family trip' = priceless! Anyway, despite the minimal savings, I think I'd rather go up there in person, do the pick-up and core swap in person for some reason.....

    So anyway, that is kind of the starting number: $1885. How much can I save trying to work with a local machine shop to regrind the crank, and then whatever else I need to do? I guess i could go really cheap and skip the machine shop o_O upload_2024-5-30_15-13-34.gif ...maybe just buy a new crank, find the right size rod and main bearings, slap it back together and see what happens (you guys going to freak out if I don't hone the cylinders, resize the rods or tank the block?). If it kills the engine completely, I am not out that much (cost of crank and bearings) and basically back to where I am right now looking at a new crate engine....or maybe it will last for a long time. Kind of thinking it might be worth the gamble.....
     
  14. May 30, 2024
    Rich M.

    Rich M. Shoe salesman 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    For me anymore it's always about time. The only finite quantity..
     
  15. May 30, 2024
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    its a small block ,clean it good slap a new /reground crank and one new rod to replace the possibly stretched one, i have a 350 rod i could donate heck ill throw in the piston too. I took a piston rings and rod bearing out of one in the dirt and put in to a truck i was running, lasted years till i sold it.More Information for ENGINETECH 123900 (rockauto.com)
     
  16. Jun 3, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    It's all apart...down to bare block....
    [​IMG]

    The oiling issue seems more pervasive than just rod #1...some of the other main bearings aren't looking as good as they should - no grooves but way too much wear for the limited mileage.
    [​IMG]

    The #5 rod bearing is also bad - showing copper and did a bit of damage to the crank:
    [​IMG]

    I talked with a local machine engine shop (internal combustion machine) in Belgrade (sister town to Bozeman)....discussed some options and pricing. Probably looking at over $1000 for machining all the crank rod journals and resizing all the rods, honing the cylinders and basic parts (bearings, gaskets, rings)....might be more for cam bearings if going that route, and maybe main journals on crank, etc....and probably 3 months out. will stop by shop tomorrow tomorrow and chat in person with some of the parts. He also recommended a shop in Great falls that is bigger and does more volume....they also build engines for order, so that could be an alternative option to s and J for getting a short block. I'd like to finalize the plan going forward by the end of the week.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2024
  17. Jun 4, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
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    Took a bunch of the parts and block to the machine shop today to - he had offered to assess the parts etc. As I was disassembling yesterday, it became apparent that every bearing was damaged, and something more than just a repair to the #1 rod was probably headed my way. He checked a few common mistakes or errors that can happen (missing plugs or non-functional relief valve on the oil pump) that can starve oil, but everything seems in order in that regard. Its possible that somehow the crank/main bearings were somehow out of tolerance with the line bore, but that is pretty rare. Basically, his best guess is it seems like there was some sort of contamination in the oil....there is even signs of wear at the rocker arms on the top of the springs, and at the pivot balls, cam as well as decent circle wear on the bottom of the lifters - Seemed some of the convexity was flattened out. So anything that was oiled had wear - but what contaminated the oil? His best guess is something like Al oxide that gets used in various abrasives/scotchbrite when people are cleaning gasket surfaces and what not, gets embedded into the rough casting of the block and is really hard to clean out - even typical machine shop jet washes won't remove all of it. I didn't use anything like that on the block, but it can get into the jet wash as shops like his from someone else's block and then it contaminates all subsequent blocks that are used in that jet wash. I don't know....I guess the biggest concern would be if Al oxide contaminated the entire system, there is no easy way to get it all out, and any future build with the block is a bit risky....probably will need to disassemble the heads completely and wash them as well, and the intake if i stay with the same one. For $1000 plus some risk that I cannot get it cleaned out well enough - S&J is looking better....got some questions along those lines as well in a future post....
    https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2017/MC-10137601-9999.pdf
     
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  18. Jun 4, 2024
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    In addition to considering a standard Gen 1 to go back in the 58, is there any reason to consider an 87-95 gen 1 with 1piece RMS and center bolt VC, or even a 96 and later engine with vortec heads and roller cam etc? The biggest concern I have with going a bit more modern would be making sure it still works with what I have. Obviously the later engines would need different heads and intake than what I have (so adds $), but maybe its worth it? My biggest concerns:
    1) do all these versions of the sbc use the original mounting pads - basically, no need to change the engine mounts or worry about position
    2) I do not have a lot of front clearance with the radiator - I had to use a short wp and electric fan. That really limits some accessory bracketry options....I don't know even know for sure if the 96 and later even uses traditional water pump lengths and/or pulley brackets - I would think it uses a serpentine system and no idea if that will fit in my limited clearance.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2024
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  19. Jun 4, 2024
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    Roller lifters are nice insurance against the issues lots of people are having breaking in new cams and lifters. Like everything else, there are quality out there with new engine parts too.
     
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  20. Jun 4, 2024
    Jw60

    Jw60 Dropping towbars 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Trails end,...
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    The flywheel is different between one pc rear main and two pc motors.
    There may not be a fuel pump boss on the later block.
    Exhaust will need to be used from the old motor.
    You're still planning on stock hp right? So you can slap an adapter on the tbi intake for a carb and stab the old distributor in it.
     
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