Please dont shoot!

Alright, gathering parts for a '72 cj5 build and am now eye ballin axles. I have narrow tracks now and hate them. I was thinking waggy axles but some pics look too wide and others look just right...I dont know. I wheel to wheel and dont usually get the"hell no, I aint doin' that" thought so I want to get wider. I have been looking for cj7 wide tracks but really aint a fan of the dana 30 front. Was thinking....here we go...Toyota 8" axles. I can come by them purdy cheap and theres alot of them around here. Or should I stick with waggy's? Full width is out of the question...just too wide IMO.

 

i got a set of gladiator axles under my 2a with a wide ofset wheel and the tires are out of wheel well. with a narower ofset on the wheel u might be able to swing 3/4s of the tire out instead of all of it or look into older chevy f/s axles with hummer bead locks to get a real narow track out of the f/s axles

 

The toyota axles aren't bad.


Dont count out international Scout axles. They are a little wider, the pumpkins are in the right spots, and they are usually both Dana 44's.

 

I was origianlly thinking of older fs chevy axles, but they are still a bit long. I found a couple waggy front 44's but no rear ones so I was going to use a toyota IFS rear axle which is same width as waggy but some of them with the v6's came with 4:88's and an E-locker. I havn't ruled out scouts at all, if i find a set for a good price I will jump on them. BUT..finding them around here is slim to nill. Only thing about toyota fronts is the birfields which I would def change out with longfields but would rather fork the money out for a locker for a D44 waggy or scout. Also Dauntless, do you have any pics of your jeep with the gladiator axles under it? Whats the WMS on them?

 

Do you hate the narrow tracks because of safety concerns?

 

Yes because my spotter is my 6 year old boy. I dont mind it too much by myself but I dont like the pucker facter with him in the jeep and it dont take much to get it with the narrow tracks. I am also taking the rear bench out and bolting a single low back dead center of the jeep between and behind the two front ones. That way he is put right under the roll cage and away from the sides.

 

Another option would be to run the Waggy front and the V-6 Toyota rear. Both 6 lug so no issue there. Conversion flanges are readily available for the Toyota. Built several 44 fronts for Toyota people who kept blowing up their 8" front axles but didn't want to go Dana 60. The gears would do ok but even with the Bobby Long upgrades to the axles they still had issues. You could later upgrade to Chromo axles in the Waggy with minimal hassle also. The closed knuckle design of the Toyota tends to leak also although are better than the old Jeep 25/27 axles.
5.38's and 5.29's for the 44 and Toy respectively are not enough difference to be an issue off road or 4.88's are available for both. The V-6 Carrier assembly is definitely stronger for the Toyota than the 4 cylinder units.

 

That was my orignal thinking exactally. Toyota makes decent axles but the front birfields scare me a little bit. Even with the longfields...they still remind me of an IFS CV axle and I snap those like candy sticks. The cool thing about the toyota rear with the v6 and auto is that alot of them if not all came with 4:88's and the factory E-locker. Thats always a plus if you ask me. Plus I would have a set of wheels for the axles since Im straight axleing my GMC and have no use for my current 15x10's. I currently run 4:56's in my CJ with a 44 rr and 30 frt. Now since these narrow tracks aint worth much, Im wondering if I can just swap my ring and pinon out of my rear 44 and stuff them into a waggy front 44...would it work? That way I can use that 200$ towards a lock-rite or somthing for the front.

 

Yup, the waggy front 44 is low pinion and so is the stock 44 CJ rear and the gears and case will fit both.

 

The Toyota diffs are quite popular around here, in Toys and Jeeps. I have them under my Jeepster.

I ran the stock front Birfs until I had the wheels cut hard in reverse pulling a stuck XJ out of a bog and snapped a birf. After that I went to Longfields. I only have a 4.3 and 35" tires, and 4.10 gears, I expect to never break a longfield. I have heard of people breaking R&P's when they are lower geared.

One thing about Scout axles are the external hubs, they can cause a lot of grief when they loosen and snap studs. The Toys have cone washers to keep them tight.

Sounds like you may need chromoly axles in whatever you choose, maybe price out both ways and see what fits. The Trail gear high steer for Toys is a bargain.

Longfield axle snap test- you can see the Longfield axles would not be a weak link compared to stock or chromoly 44 shafts.

PRODUCT / ................................................. FT.LB. TORQUE/.... % TWIST
Yukon 4340 Dana 60 35 spline short side axle.........12,000 ..................130
Stock Dana 60 35 spline short side axle .................6,500 ....................35
Yukon 4340 Dana 44 30 spline short side axle ..........5,800 ...................35
Stock dana 44 30 spline........................................5,00 0.....................35
Yukon 4340 Birfield Eliminator kit (ear failure)............5,500......................50
Longfield 4340 30 spline (shaft failure)......................8,500............... ......175
Longfield 4340 27 spline........................................6,50 0.....................75
Stock Toyota Birfield.......................................... ..4,200 .....................45
Stock Toyota Inner Axle.......................................5,000 .....................45
All Pro "Profield".................................... .... .......... 3,500 ....................30

 

The Longfields are great axles and have saved the Toyota Folks. Problem is you beef those up and then if you are running low gears then the ring and pinion or diff gears become an issue. There's a lot of flex in the carrier bearing caps on the Toyota removeable carriers and when coupled with the torque that's generally what wipes out the ring and pinion. Toy axles are good but only so much you can do to them. The 44 doesn't suffer from that particular issue. Not saying the 44 is the end all or be all by any means but it is stronger.
Personally I'd stay away from the scout front. One for the reason Hawkes mentioned but they also have super long steering arms on the knuckles and have very low caster settings that must be dealt with if planning on driving on the street. You can convert the Scout to internal hubs but it's kind of a pain and requires either machining the knuckle or spindle or changing from the knuckle out.
I'd stick with the Waggy 44 front or the Toyota personally.

 

Thanks for those numbers. I aint running much in my jeep. I have a stock 304, 4:56's and 33's. WIll be putting a np435 in here purdy soon though. One problem though with the toy front axle, is that it is 3 inches narrower than the toyota ifs rear axle that im wanting to get. So I would have to run 1.5" spacers in the front to match the rear. The wheels im using have about 4.8" offset already and that just seems like alot of leverage on them bearings. What do you guys think? I didn't know that about the scout axles but since It hard to find a set of them around here, i will just scratch them off the list. I dont want to start dealing with caster issues and knuckles and stuff like that as of now. So lets just say im sticking with a d44 frt and toy ifs rear. How strong are their rear axles on the toys?

 

The Toy IFS rear should hold up fine to 33"s and a 304. It's dang near as strong as a 44. The housing doesn't flex as much so you actually gain a little strength there. From what you just described a Toy rear with V-6 third member and a Waggy 44 front would be just about right if you want to go wider and outboard the front springs.

 

This puzzles me ...

"The Toy IFS rear" ... is ... " dang near as strong as a 44." Why would you mix Toyota and Jeep axles, when the Wagoneer rears are 44s and stronger? Because of offset? Centered flanged Wagoneer D44 axles are available. Even more plentiful, go with an M23 and they are all centered, and the M23 is reputed to be stronger than the 44.

<edit> Ah ... maybe the factory electric locker is the prime reason?

 

Yup and the factory 4.88's.

The M23 is an ok rear axle but gears tend to be more expensive, ratios and lockers are more limited, and the housing is no stronger than a 44, in fact the center section is slightly weaker because of the thinner casting. The ring gear is larger but suffers from a collapsible spacer for pinion bearing preload and I'm not aware of anyone making a solid spacer conversion for it like they do the Toy axle.
The D44 Waggy axles are still offset, even the "centered" rears are not really centered although can work fine but also suffer from typically lousy gear ratio's in stock form. The Toyota is centered so driveline angles are easier to deal with. The Toy has a little better ground clearance as well. Plus the original poster appears to be familiar with the Toy axles so that is a plus for him.

 

Not to sound ignorant, but what axle is the M23? There are a couple reasons I am interested in the ifs toy rear axle. It has better ground clearence then a D44, some say almost as strong if not as strong as a D44, they are perfectly centered, share same bolt pattern as the waggy front D44 and in some cases come with the E-locker and 4:88's fromt the factory. Big plus as that saves cash on gears and a locker, which I can then afford to throw a set of 4:88's and a lock-rite or somthing in the front.

 

just go ahead and get some Rockwells. They're plenty wide and come with a 6:71 gear ratio and a high pinion.

 

give me a day or two to get the body set back on and ill get some pics of the rear heres the front its not a real good angle so ill get some more asap and pardon my mess

 

M23 is the AMC 20 from a Wagoneer. It has a lot in common with the Corporate 20 (the M20) used in CJs, except it has one-piece axles and heavier tubes. This addresses two of the primary faults of the CJ axles. The Wagoneer guys like them well enough, considering them basically comparable to the 44.

 

The M-23 is the Wagoneer version of the AMC Corporate Model 20 which was used in CJ's. I'd never recommend using the M-20 as it has way too many weaknesses. The M-23 is a much better unit, stronger tubes, one piece axles, etc. but still not as good as the Toy or Dana 44. The Toy is NOT as strong as a Dana 44, despite what the Toyota guys would have everyone believe, for the reasons mentioned above, but it's not far behind and would be a good unit for you. The Toy rear axle is a good unit for many of the reasons you already mentioned. If you ever dive into the Toyota gears install a crush sleeve eliminator kit to get rid of the collapsible spacer. About $23 or so and makes it a much stronger unit.