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To Pertronix, Or Not Pertronix...that Is The Question

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by TonyM, Oct 25, 2019.

  1. Oct 31, 2019
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
    65CJ5 SRD likes this.
  2. Oct 31, 2019
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
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  3. Oct 31, 2019
    liquids

    liquids Old Member 2019 Sponsor

    Detroit-ish
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    Is it possible the recommendation for shielded / EMI/RFI suppression wires is for preventing interference in other devices (e.g. radio) and has nothing to do with ignition performance or durability?
     
    dozerjim and ITLKSEZ like this.
  4. Oct 31, 2019
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    These charts show some of the Pertronix Ignitor and Ignitor II modules available in 6V, 12V, and 24V for different models of Autolite and Delco distributors, as well as Pertronix coil applications for Willys and Kaiser-era Jeeps:

    Pertronix: Willys Applications

    Jeep
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
  5. Nov 1, 2019
    TonyM

    TonyM Member 2019 Sponsor

    Middle Tennessee
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    Gang - OP here... I received my 6 volt Pertronix unit today (#1541N6) for the IAD 4041 distributor. The instructions that came with it do not specify the type of plug wires to use BUT the tech at Pertronix told me a moment ago on the phone to definitely use "suppressor" or resistor/shielded wires. The instructions do caution to not leave the key in the "on" position without the engine running - something I think we've already covered. I hope to install the unit today or tomorrow and will keep everyone posted.
     
  6. Nov 1, 2019
    CHUGALUG

    CHUGALUG New Member

    Silverton, OR
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    May 11, 2019
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    There are numerous stories from guys getting less then 75 miles out of a Petronix unit and when the problem is tracked down it turns out to be the plug wires. Hence my warning. Been using Petronix units since 1998
     
  7. Nov 8, 2019
    dieseljeeper

    dieseljeeper New Member

    spanaway, wa
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    I have another testiment to pertronix, not on my jeep , I solved that by swapping in a diesel. My Pertronix experience is with my Massey Ferguson tractor. I put the Pertronix kit on in 1988 because the disributor had a worn out cam. This rig sits outside, gets abused only when the engine is turned on and the ignition kit has outlasted two tach/hourmeters. I wouldnt hesitate to install another one
     
  8. Nov 9, 2019
    Doug Hoffman

    Doug Hoffman New Member

    Meridian, ID
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    Nov 1, 2008
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    Another plug for Pertronix; although not on either of my Jeeps - yet. I had a 69 Bronco I got cheap off a buddy of mine, and even after a complete tune up, it still was a bear to start up. I put in a new wiring harness to eliminate some electrical issues and messy wiring and figured why not try the electronic ignition as well. I installed the Pertronix ignition, touched the key and it was running. Startled me, actually, at how quick it fired up. Rig didn't see a lot of use and sat outside for long periods without running. Still always fired up quickly and ran well with an engine that looked like it hadn't been touched since it rolled off the assembly line.

    Not sure why I don't have one in my 3B or my CJ5 yet.....
     
  9. Nov 11, 2019
    Stano316

    Stano316 Member

    Long Island
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    Aug 27, 2018
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    I put a pertonix unit on my 70 International Loadstar with a 345 and it was a pretty big difference. I could start that truck in the middle of the winter on Long Island without any issue. Currently I am running points on my 302 in the jeep, and it starts pretty good, but I will be going to pertronix sooner than later, and keep the points in a tool box.
     
  10. Nov 12, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    The wires are in the circuit with the points, connected by the inductance between the primary and secondary of the coil. It makes sense that the resistive wires (suppression wires) would limit the peak current in the secondary (lower dv/dt) which should also limit the peak current in the primary. No experience with the Pertronix unit, but I know that the factory Duraspark modules used later by Jeep will melt if the current-limiting resistance wire to the coil is left out or bypassed.

    The Pertronix unit uses a big transistor to switch the coil on and off, just like points would. Same with Duraspark or HEI or any other "electronic" ignition that simply replaces the points. There's nothing electrical that suggests that a transistor switch would perform any better than a mechanical switch (points, aka a Kettering trigger). A capacitive discharge (CD) module like the MSD adds a capacitor that is charged to high voltage, and this turns the inductance of the coil into a resonant LC circuit. Nothing like that in the Pertronix, so it should be entirely equivalent to an identically tuned top-condition points distributor.

    Decreased maintenance and stable timing are the main benefits for Pertronix - no change in the spark. Indeed, the barrier potential of the transistor in the circuit and current-limiting losses should reduce the spark intensity of the Pertronix compared to points. In cases like this, I suspect it's the owner's confirmation bias plus coincidental tuning and parts replacement that makes the performance seem better. Not knocking the product, but it should not make a big difference compared to a comparable replacement of points and ignition parts with a corresponding tune-up.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2019
  11. Nov 14, 2019
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Tim, would installing a Pertronix 3.0 ohm coil running at an input of 12v (i.e. with the ballast resistor bypassed) in place of the stock setup make any difference in terms of the total amount of energy directed to the spark plugs?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2019
  12. Nov 14, 2019
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Thank you.

    Like years ago when everyone was "computerizing" their offices, I was told by a programmer that percieved gains in efficiency were actually the result of the paper organization ('tuning") done in preparation for the switchover.
     
  13. Nov 14, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    If their advertising is truthful, it will. These "high energy" coils increase the spark voltage by increasing the turns ratio between the primary and secondary of the coil. It's entirely a "passive" phenomena, relying on character of the magnetic coupling within the coil - there are no electronics involved. Whether it's switched by points or by a transistor (Pertronix, Duraspark, whatever) will not change the passive characteristics of the coil. That said, if I were running a Pertronix ignition module, I would expect some advice from them on which of their coils to run and whether or not to include a ballast resistor. You need to operate the transistor in the module that replaces the points within the maker's guidelines, and that includes what voltage transients it will withstand and how much power it can sink (heat resulting from connecting the coil current through the transistor). The purpose of the ballast resistor is to limit current through the coil, and it will also affect the transistor by reducing the temperature of the transistor substrate. Too hot and the transistor - poof - goes open.
     
  14. Nov 14, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Sure. Plus the workers were expecting a positive change for all this effort. This is why experiment design is ideally double-blind - so that neither the subject's nor the experimenter's expectations influence the outcome. Biases have a powerful effect on perception.
     
  15. Nov 14, 2019
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Plus, setting the points is how my Jeep knows that I love it. And when it runs just fine, I know that it loves me.
     
    dozerjim and Glenn like this.
  16. Nov 14, 2019
    tcfeet

    tcfeet Member

    east of west,...
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    How much time with the key on, engine not running are we talking about? Would it be advisable to run the ignition wire through an
    another switch between the key switch and coil in case you needed to trouble shoot other wireing or let your electric fuel pump prime up before starting??
     
  17. Nov 14, 2019
    TonyM

    TonyM Member 2019 Sponsor

    Middle Tennessee
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    I got sidelined for a few days and wanted to update you all on my Pertronix progress. The jeep wouldn't start after installation and after bench testing the Pertronix, it turns out that the unit they sent me was defective. They're sending me a replacement that should arrive early next week.

    I must say that their tech support was really helpful and patient, both on the phone and via email and they sent me a couple very useful troubleshooting documents, including the bench test info.

    If anyone would like to see these docs, send me a direct message with your email and I'll send them your way.

    If a moderator would like to create a Pertronix section in the "tech index" section please reach out and I'll share the documents to post there. Some of them are specific to my 6 volt situation, but the bench test is applicable to both 12 and 6 volt Ignitor I units.

    More updates next week, hopefully...
     
  18. Nov 14, 2019
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Pete, you need to get out more often with you wife...
     
  19. Nov 14, 2019
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    :rofl:

    My ex-wife. And no, thank you. :D
     
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  20. Nov 14, 2019
    PeteL

    PeteL Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Hills of NH
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    Once again, I'm always baffled why folks keep saying they want the "reliability" of pertronix. I'd rather have something I can fix. Rant off.
     

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