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MD Juan Tub Kit 1969 CJ5 4CLY (7/2016)

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Wirework, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. Mar 4, 2017
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2021 Sponsor

    York, PA
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    Maybe I missed it but......is new foam available for the seats? Very interested to see what you do with the seats. Many years ago the local upholstery guy I spoke with said my seats couldn't be restored because of the design.....the springs being molded in with the foam.....new cushions were not available then. I didn't pursue it further and replaced my seats with later jeep seats from a cj-7, I think. High backs. I always preferred the original low backs though, for seeing out of the JEEP on the trail.
     
  2. Mar 4, 2017
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    First- Have you tried polarizing the genny?

    If that isn't it:

    How it works-[​IMG]

    Do you have the FSM? This is in there but just in case:
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    H.
     
  3. Mar 4, 2017
    Oldriginal86

    Oldriginal86 Member

    Pasadena, Md.
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    586
    For drying out the seat foam, try vacuum bagging them. Find a heavy duty trash bag and hook it up to a vacuum pump. A good shop vac would probably work also.
     
  4. Mar 5, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Thanks for joining the conversation. 'Ya know... I didn't even check about replacement foam... My brother, Dan, the upholstery guy, said, "don't worry about any thing. I can fix it."

    He said, yes, the foam is molded, but he can cut stock foam blocks to match. He told me not to separate the springs from the foam, (yet)... so we'll all see what's next. :)
     
  5. Mar 5, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Thanks for all of this!
    Yep, we have the FSM and performed the 10 generator tests (at least those we had the equipment to do it), and the conclusion was "bad regulator". I have the Delco-Remy type and am ordering a replacement today.

    I missed the regulator write up in the FSM, so thanks for pointing me to that. I hate not knowing exactly why it failed, so I look forward to figuring that out.

    Thanks, again!
     
  6. Mar 5, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Ohhhh... neat! Now that the foam parts are disassembled and open to the low RH air in a heated garage (15F outside), they will likely dry out over the weekend... if not we'll try it!

    Thanks!
     
  7. Mar 5, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    [​IMG]
    Does anyone have a theory explaining the rubber and grommets in the mounting bracket of the Voltage Regulator (VR)? Certainly I appreciate needing some vibration isolation and good grounding, but maybe I assembled it incorrectly...

    My bolts bear directly on the left hand side "springs" (two metal 'wings' with holes), which are supported underneath by two round rubber grommets with metal grommet centers. The rubber grommets seem to provide vibration isolation for the VR. On the right, a single rubber grommet with a metal center provides isolation on the right side. The metal centers seem to limit the compression of the attachment bolts.

    But the assembly seems to rely on the underside of the left hand bolt heads for grounding... which seems unreliable... they are "through bolts" with nuts and lock washers on the dash side, and no real body/thread contact.

    It feels like a separate ground wire could improve the VR design (being careful not to damage parts on the bottom when drilling).

    Thoughts anyone?

    Thanks
     
  8. Mar 6, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Monday Jeep Day update:

    By the time I arrived, Joe had already done a little bit of welding and extended a pivot pin on one of the rear seat floor brackets. Now we can start the seat one side at a time... much easier for one guy to mount them now.

    We also pulled off the SS grab bar which we decided to paint black. We just thought it would look better black.

    And Joe tore down the final seat to prepare its frame for painting.

    The speedometer mounted gages (fuel level and coolant temperature) and the cowl mounted voltage regulator got all the rest of our attention today.

    We checked for ground everywhere first; it was all good.

    Then we isolated the the fuel level sensor and checked its resistance; it seemed too high vs. predictions on the internet... over 200 ohms (expecting under 20 ohms). I can't imagine what would cause this kind of failure in a float sensor. I wonder if the PO just bought the wrong one (wrong resistance values vs. level). I need to research fuel level gage/sensor combinations for the correct resistance/reaction pairing.

    We wanted to take the possibility of bad wiring out of the equation and decided to pull the speedometer cluster out of the dash. After completely disassembling it, we noticed something I missed before.

    When I bought new gages last summer, the fuel gage needle was displaced.
    [​IMG]

    I thought I put it back where it belonged without damaging it, but I screwed up. The needle moved to where I wanted it, but didn't rotate properly on its support pin... moving it accidentally deformed the mechanism.

    Today when I saw the fuel gage up close, I realized my mistake, and I adjusted the needle the way I should have originally. Then I attached the fuel gage to a DC power supply and used a 60W light bulb to simulate the fuel level sensor resistance and the needle moved (for the first time). Unfortunately, it should have read close to Full, but only registered 1/4 Full. So I need to buy a new fuel gage.

    Edit: I have a 13VDC power supply. The gage is supposed to internally regulate the supply voltage down to 5 VDC (?). If the internal regulator doesn't produce the right voltage, the gage will not produce the right reading. My gage's internal regulator was defective.

    We had very quickly checked the temp gage and thought it might also be bad, but then read online that it can take up to 1/2 minute for the gages to respond to signal changes. Sure enough, again using a power supply and a 60W bulb to simulate a temp sensor signal, after several seconds our patience rewarded; the temp gage reacted properly... it is OK.

    The voltage regulator(VR) was next. I had four or five different schematic drawings and descriptions of how an early voltage regulator works. I pulled my VR off the Jeep so I could get a close look at its circuit design and maybe learn why it seemed not to be working properly.

    It turned out to be different from all the examples I found here and online.
    [​IMG]

    My VR has three control relays. Left to right:

    Battery (load) Cut Out - isolates the battery with a normally open (NO) relay contact until the generator voltage is high enough to charge the battery. Only a high enough voltage will cause this relay to pull in. A second current coil in the relay forces the contact back open if the generator voltage drops below the battery voltage (which reverses the current direction in that second coil and seperates the battery from the generator).

    Current limiter - its Normally Closed (NC) contacts allow the generator Field pole to go straight to ground unless the current gets too high. If too high, it breaks the direct connection and forces the generator's field path to ground through a parallel resistor, which reduces the field current, which lowers the generator output. The relay cycles as much as 60 times a second to keep the current average at an acceptable level.

    Voltage limiter - its NC contact allows the generator Field pole to go straight to ground unless the voltage gets too high. If too high, it breaks the direct connection and forces the field path to ground through a parallel resistor which reduces the field current, which lowers the generator output. The relay cycles as much as 60 times a second to keep the voltage average at an acceptable level.

    The schematic looks like this (as far as I can tell):
    [​IMG]
    The question marks highlight my circuit assumptions. The two shunt coils each have a wire end hidden under insulation, so I had to guess where they went. This routing makes the most sense to me based on their function and based on the other 4-5 similar VR circuits I reviewed.

    The symptom: the red "Amp" light in the speedometer cluster remains "on" at idle and only goes out at much higher RPM. That means the Battery Cut Out relay isn't pulling its contacts closed at idle.

    FSM tests we did last Friday suggested the generator was OK but not the VR...

    Today I attached a 13.7 VDC power supply to the GEN (Armature) terminal of the VR, and the BAT relay contact immediately pulled closed. Then I removed the power supply and attached the battery (at 12.6 VDC) to the GEN terminal and the BAT relay contacts remained open. That's exactly what should happen.

    So, something is wrong with the generator output voltage. Either there is a generator issue, or a generator control issue...

    The VR current and voltage relays perform generator control. The VR control function can be by-passed by wiring the generator's Field pole directly to ground (which duplicates the two in-series NC contacts in series. That should allow the generator output voltage to reach its highest value at idle. We will test that next.

    We'll also check the generator belt for slippage and tear down the generator to check the brushes, etc.

    More to come Wednesday...
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  9. Mar 7, 2017
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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  10. Mar 7, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Thanks Twin. Yep, the replacement fuel gages (Crown & Omix-Ada) both reverse the E/F. I just spent 2 hrs looking on line and can't find anything else made to replace the original (Stewart Warner??).

    And the new one I bought last Fall (?) doesn't drop the voltage being sent to the companion temp gage, either... So, I also wonder if it has the internal current(?) regulation of the old (original) one. You see it on the right in the old one.

    [​IMG]

    I'm tempted to take this damaged new fuel gage apart and try to adjust it... (I just have to get close). Joe just found a 0 - 100 ohm potentiometer, so we can dial in any fuel level signal we want... 'Worth a try, I have nothing to lose before I buy another one.

    We'll also pull the fuel level sender tomorrow and see what's up with that.
     
  11. Mar 8, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Wednesday, Jeep Day...

    Joe took a wire brush to the internal frames of all the seats. We learned a few days ago that the passenger seat folds. Today we learned that the driver's seat does not fold.

    Then Joe primered them and at the end of the day we painted them.
    [​IMG]

    Friday we hope to spend the day at my brother Dan's auto reupholstering shop so we can match mark the seat fabric parts, disassemble them with a seam ripper, and and maybe get to cut out the new seat pieces per our patern, mark them, and sew them. Hopefully Dan can start working on the foam and springs while Joe and I do the other work.

    We pulled the fuel sender, checked its resistance vs. float height, and based on our measurements, guessed it is completely wrong for this Jeep. Max resistance was 210 ohms, min was 56... I think max at "Full" should be 75 ohms. Anyway i'll order one tonight or tomorrow.

    **********
    EDIT: since the sender resistance lowers the voltage drop available to the gage, and that voltage drop creates the heat necessary to move the needle, and a cold needle is "E" empty, I would expect the maximum sender resistance to be when the tank is Empty and the minimum sender resistance to be when the tank is Full... so I think my statement above is backwards... I'll confirm when the new one arrives.
    *********

    We also took our new found understanding of the voltage regulator circuit and tried it out on the running Jeep.

    With the engine off, the Field terminal should read zero volts since both the (series) current relay's NC contact, and the (shunt) voltage relay's NC contact are closed, and that grounds the Field terminal... and, yep, it read zero.

    So we started the engine and watched the Armeture voltage climb to 13.7 VDC. And the Field voltage climbed to over 6 VDC. The Field terminal is connected directly to the Armeture terminal on the bottom side of the VR via a resistor, so it makes sense that the Field voltage would always remain lower than the Armeture voltage, because the resister causes a voltage drop proportional to the current going though it.

    According to the FSM wiring diagram, the "AMP" battery charging idiot light is wired between the Battery (via the ignition switch) and the end terminal on the VR.

    On the actual VR, the BAT terminal is on the passenger end, and the FLD terminal is on the driver end. So I wired it per the FSM. But the FSM wiring diagram must be wrong (or at least misleading). I don't think the AMP idiot light should be between the BAT and FLD, I think it goes between BAT and GEN.

    ***************
    EDIT: I found out several days after this original post that my Voltage Regulator (VR) is not like the one shown in the FSM or like others shown on line for my 1969 F134 engine. And after a closer review of the FSM write up on the VR, I see the "standard" factory VR terminals are in a different order than mine. And further, the description of the AMP idiot light operation states the connection as between the Battery (BAT) and the Generator (GEN). Problem solved.
    ***************

    The AMP idiot light is only powered "on" when the voltage difference across it is high enough to make the light glow bright enough to make it visible. But the Field voltage is always going to be lower than the Battery voltage. So if it is wired between the Battery and the Field terminal, it will always be on.

    After the engine starts and the Armeture voltage exceeds the Battery voltage (by "enough"), the Cut Out (CO) relay closes the NO contacts and that connects the Battery to the Armeture. That makes the Generator charge the Battery and also take on the vehicle electrical load. Since the Battery and Armeture (GEN) are connected, there is very little voltage difference between them. That would make the AMP idiot light go "off" if it is wired between them.

    We are going to put it back together this new way and see if it works properly, likely next Monday.


    As I suggested this past Monday, I did "open gage surgery" today on my fuel gage... yikes!!... what a mess.
    [​IMG]
    I was openly skeptical Monday about there being any kind of voltage regulation, because there was no voltage difference between the "I" and "A" terminals on the back of the gage ("A" is the regulated pole and should be 5 VDC).

    Well, I found out why today.

    The gage moves when a current flows through the very small wire wrapped around a "V" shaped calibrated bi-matalic strip (two different metals sandwiched together). The current heats the wire and the wire heats the metal. Two different metals each expand at different rates, so the bi-metal strip bends consistently and predictably when heated. One head of the "V" shaped strip is fixed to a calibration plate, the other head is attached to the short side of a pivoted needle. The heat produced in the wire is proportional to the resistance in the sensor, so the deformation of the strip and the needle movement are determined by the resistance of the sensor. The gage strip is the lower wire wrapped metal strip across the bottom hemisphere of the gage photo. You are looking at the "V" edge on, with the "V" on its side, heads to the right.

    The second wire wrapped bi-metal strip in the upper gage hemisphere is the voltage regulator. It is also "V" shaped, edue on, heads to the right. One head is fixed, the other head is a movable contact (visible at about 2:00 o'clock.) As the supply current moves through the wire, it heats the strip until the contacts open, which breaks the circuit, and allows the wires and strip to cool. That closes the contacts and begins the cycle again. If the contacts touch lightly, they open and close more quickly. If they are pressed tighter together, more heat is required and the cycle is slower. The supply current is thereby regulated off/on producing an average voltage lower than the input voltage. The contacts can be adjusted; see the screw at the 1:00 position. The second side of the contacts was cantelevered, I suppose to soften the contact's pressure... 'don't really know.

    Well, the problem with my fuel gage was a short circuit between the voltage control "V" strip and the cantilevered contact strip. This negated the effect of the voltage control contacts opening. That's why the "A" terminal always remained the same as the input voltage.
    [​IMG]
    You can just see the two strips making contact below the two wound strips. I was able to separate them on their mounting plate and eliminate the short circuit.

    Now the regulated terminal cycles between zero volts and the supply voltage, about 12 volts. This matters because consistent needle movement relies on a consistent voltage.

    The needle has a span adjustment and zero adjustment. The internal calibration plate can be rotated left/right with a screwdriver tip (to move the zero), or up/down (to change the span of the needle's movement).

    We tested it again with a standard 60W bulb as a sensor resistance. It seemed to work ok... we'll see once the fuel sender is replaced.

    We also put the (now black) grab bar back on. We like black better than SS (color).
    [​IMG]

    And finally, we tried out the hood side reflector.
    [​IMG]
    Those are reflectors, not lights.

    And that was the day.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    ojgrsoi likes this.
  12. Mar 11, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    400
    Friday JEEP DAY:

    I was reading one of Howard's old posts about the gages and learned that the internal voltage regulator should cycle so quickly that it not display on/off (at the "A" terminal), but rather just show a lower voltage (5 VDC?). Since I couldn't repair mine well enough to do that, I just bought a new fuel gage.

    I'm having a bit of difficulty identifying the correct fuel level sensor/sender to both match the replacement gage resistance requirements and match the installed under-seat tank in my 1969. My tank has a bottom fuel line connection but the parts book shows the to-engine fuel line coming out through the top of the sender. I made a call to a supplier (Oconeeoffroad) and they seemed to get lost when I asked about resistance range, etc... I probably just need to find the right vendor... 'trying Walcks next.

    We made a trip to my brother Dan's, the auto reupholstering guy, and started working on the seats. We're going with a black vinyl with a leather surface texture. We'll duplicate the simple seat and back rib pattern I've seen on-line in Jeeps from that era.

    Per our earlier outline here, we started by turning the existing seat coverings inside out, then uniquely lettering and match marking each seam joint, and marking where binding, zippers, and piping was sewn, and marking every piece to identify what it was and what seat it belonged to.

    Then we took a razor and cut the stiching that held it all together. This is what we got:
    [​IMG]
    We are not exactly duplicating the rear seat because it's style doesn't exactly match the front seats.

    [​IMG]

    Next, we took our individual pieces and laid them on the back side of our fabric, traced them exactly, and then transfered every piece of information from the original to the tracing. Since the two front seats are identical, we made two copies of each piece of our one original front seat. I'll get a photo once they are all laid out and traced on the fabric.

    We didn't trace the ribbed center back and seat pieces yet. Ribbed pieces are made by first gluing a relatively thin piece of foam to the back side of the fabric, then sewing equally spaced parallel lines to pull the foam and fabric together to form the ribbs. The material makes an arched shape between each pair of the sewn rib lines, which shrinks the fabric width side to side. If we had traced the seat piece before adding the ribs, it would end up too narrow after the ribs were added. Dan can sew straight lines with his eyes closed so Joe said I have to let Dan do that part. ...ok... :)

    This morning at our Saturday morning family breakfast, Dan showed up and said he didn't want me messing up the new seats, so he is going to sew the all pieces together... ok ... :)

    Friday is a short day for us, so we didn't quite finish tracing all out pieces before we ran out of time. We'll hit it again Monday.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
  13. Mar 11, 2017
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    To be clear the regulator cycles on and off so that the average voltage is 5 volts, what your meter will show depends on what meter you're using.

    A digital meter, especially the cheap ones, will show numbers jumping all over the place as the meter's sampling period comes in & out of phase with the frequency the vr is cycling at.

    An analog meter will show the needle bouncing around a fair bit with the center of it's range around the 5 volt mark.

    I haven't measured the frequency that the vr's operate at & it probably varies a bit between guages but I suspect its in the range of one to a few times a second.

    H.
     
  14. Mar 11, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    Thanks for that extra info, Howard.

    We used a FLUKE meter. If it had an "averaging" setting, I didn't know it. My gage cycled pretty slowly between zero and 13.5 VDC... maybe even slower than once per second, but I think mine is defective.

    I surmise that the relatively fixed contact on the gage's internal voltage regulator is cantilevered so it can move out when adjusted. Mine initially sat a bit displaced outward from the adjustment screw and from its insulated vertical support board. That means the wire wound "V" shaped bi-metal strip had to heat up more and move out further to open the contact. That didn't feel right to me. Why have an adjustment screw and a cantilevered contact if it doesn't touch the screw?... I deformed the cantilevered strip behind the contact so it would bear directly on the adjustment screw.

    But without an averaging meter, I don't know what my average voltage is. Is the average output voltage just as simple as the ratio of its closed duration divided by the period? If so I could use a stopwatch to capture both and calculate it.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2017
  15. Mar 11, 2017
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2021 Sponsor

    exploring the...
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    looks awful familiar except i had to stitch mine myself. looks awesome keep it up
     
  16. Mar 11, 2017
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    and what's wrong with that (y)
     
  17. Mar 11, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
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    Not a thing!! ;)
     
  18. Mar 11, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    I've been looking around and on-line found a second voltage regulator (VR) different than mine, shown for the CJ5. And looking closely at the FSM picture of the VR, I see mine is not the same as that one either. So that may explain why my circuit diagram (below) differs from the one you shared, (above).
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Mar 13, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    Short day today. We traced the remaining front and back seat parts on fabric, and foam (where applicable). We'll get Dan to sew them together as soon as he can fit us in. Otherwise, I'll have to start sewing them. If the fuel level sensor and fuel gage come in, we can jump on that ...and the oil pressure problem.
     
  20. Mar 14, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    400
    My replacement fuel gage arrived in yesterday's mail. Notice the similarity between the damaged-on-arrival gage of one year ago, and the damaged-on-arrival of its replacement from yesterday...
    One year ago:
    [​IMG]

    Yesterday:
    [​IMG]

    These were purchased from two different vendors. Omix-Ada has obviously made absolutely no improvement to either their manufacturing, handling, or packaging sufficient to correct whatever is causing their fuel gages to arrive damaged and useless. I did not install it to see if it is also internally shorted; it needs to go back.

    I've contacted the vendor (Oconee Off-Road, GA) to request a replacement. Let's see how they respond.
     

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