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Help Me Get My T18 Clutch Released!

Discussion in 'Early CJ-5 and CJ-6 Tech' started by 71CJ54WD, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 I've got Rubicon Rash 2019 Sponsor

    Cottonwood, Ca
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    Something interesting too.... on rock auto this clutch set says:
    “To avoid chatter and hard pedal, ensure proper release bearing and fork combination”
     
  2. Jan 14, 2019
    71CJ54WD

    71CJ54WD Sponsor Sponsor

    DC
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    EDIT: I see what you mean about the 77 CJ5 V8 LUK setup having that ominous warning but the 71 225 LUK setup is devoid of that warning. While waiting on my new pressure plate I may use the old one with the 77 CJ5 V8 disk just to see if the stock 225 release bearing is the correctly length and if release can be achieved in a more manageable distance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  3. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

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    I lubed everything up, ground a spot where the replacement fork was binding with the release bearing and got everything functioning very smoothly. The clutch pedal effort was less, but still far more effort than with my old setup. My wife's 9yr old cousin drove my jeep for several days last fall with my old flat finger setup and cable clutch. There is no way that he would be able to push this clutch.

    More flies for the soup......
    I have found that the jeep v6 clutch fork is the same dimensions as a Chevy II clutch fork. The Chevy II used the short fork due to the narrow trans tunnel on that little car. There is a listing for both the short and long pivot ball studs for the Chevy II along with flat and raised finger clutch kits. I am going to assume that the factory clutch was a flat finger but most people want the raised finger for the increased holding capacity at high RPM. High RPM for a chevy v8 is far more than a dauntless. I have not yet been able to determine what length pivot ball stud goes to what. But I now have both on hand.
    Rock auto lists a flat finger M-PACT 361874 pressure plate that cross references to a multitude of pontiac, gmc, buick, olds, jeep, chevy models including the Chevy II and jeep cj5, cj6, jeepster 66-71.
    My local Napa has LUK 04002 Flat Diaphragm; 10-1/2" Clutch in stock. The pressure plate from this set should be the same as the stock jeep dauntless pressure plate, just a more common kit thus making it cheaper than the LUK jeep listing.
     
  4. Jan 14, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    DC
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    I tried to find just the pressure plate from the 225 but couldn't. Then I noticed on the Advance chart that the pressure plate doesn't cross to GM. Not wanting to risk anything I bought the whole 225 LUK kit. Advance says the 10.5 GM pressure plate is Centerforce CF360056 while the 225 10.5 pressure plate is Centerforce CF361662. My guess...and its only a guess...is that the lip on the 225 flywheel is the only difference these pressure plates have BUT the novak quote I listed above could also mean that the 225 pressure plate releases in shorter distance. I'll check the 225 pressure plate to see if it has a number on it. I don't believe my current 77 V8 CJ5 one had any numbers.
     
  5. Jan 14, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    UPDATE:

    Here is a horrible picture of the following combo (I know I know I should have removed the pivot): 225 pressure plate, 77 CJ5 V8 disk, and 1.55" throwout bearing (thats my measurement that was kinda rough...curved face bearing and should be an OEM 1377C at 1.609"). With a ratchet strap I could get this to release in almost exactly the distance that the clutch pedal pulls. It released with way less effort on the ratchet strap and again in a shorter distance. I do not believe my adjustable ball stud will be required here. However, and it is difficult to see, the throwout bearing has about 1/2" or so of free play. I don't have an exact measurement but its big enough where it would be wise for me to go to the next size up. The LUK kit for a 225 comes with a bearing so I will wait to see how long that is; I suspect that bearing will be 1.55 as well. If I could find a bearing that is 1.7-1.9 range that would probably put me and you in a better spot. Currently ordering release bearing 1697C (1.953 total height) and 614037 (1.775 total height) and giving them a try this week.

     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  6. Jan 14, 2019
    wheelie

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    Man, oh man. Thanks, guys, for working through this and sharing it all with us. Gonna be a huge time saver and help to those of us who follow (and should have had their T18's in years ago :oops:).

    A final tally of parts that ultimately are used and working, along with their numbers, would be awesome. I'd be pulling my hair out by now, wrestling a T18 in and out this many times.
     
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  7. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

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    That is my hope for this thread. Perhaps when it is all said and done we could get the info saved. When I put my T18 in a couple years ago, there was no definitive answers as to just what really works. I purchased the 77-79 cj5 clutch based on a member here, but he runs a hydraulic clutch that overcomes the extreme pedal effort. I hope to get the Chevy II pressure plate installed either tonight or tomorrow. I'm almost positive that the pressure plate is exactly the same as the factory dauntless.

    When your LUK 225 plate comes in, I would like to know what numbers if any are stamped or printed on it.
     
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  8. Jan 14, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    Do you have the chevy disk? Can you measure the distance from the friction surface to the hub (on the pressure plate side)? The stock 225 disk is a little shorter on the hub (pressure plate side again) than the 77 CJ5 V8 disk. I don't think there's any interference but curious if you can compare the disks you have and see what the difference is on the pressure plate sides.
     
  9. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

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    When I take it apart to I will measure. Currently I have no interference. The early cj5 disc that is coming with your pressure plate should be the same as a chevy 1 1/8" 10 spline.

    Here are the markings on the Chevy II pressure plate
    [​IMG]

    back side of fingers

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2019
  10. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

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    66 Chevy II flat diaphragm pressure plate is installed.
    Clutch pedal effort with the Chevy II is roughly half of the 77-79 cj5 raised diaphragm pressure plate.
    I think I found my forever clutch..... LUK 04002 with release bearing National 1697-C supplied with the kit. The actual bearing supplied has no markings, I had the national bearing on hand to measure and compare.

    Of course I first installed the trans without the pivot or fork to check my release bearing free board. It looks like it is right at 1/8" with the bearing up against the fingers.

    [​IMG]

    Neither the supplied bearing or the N1697-C have the pin or hump to keep them from spinning on the clutch fork. I may put a little spot weld on the clutch fork groove to prevent spinning.
     
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  11. Jan 14, 2019
    Norcal69

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    Parts run down....
    Clutch pressure plate is from a 66 Chevy II LUK 04002 10-1/2" FLAT Diaphram
    Clutch disc is from a 77-79 cj5 1-1/16" 10 spline 10-1/2" Diameter
    Release bearing is National 1697-C this is the super long bearing
    Clutch fork is 66-71 cj5 V6
    Clutch ball stud is the standard GM 1-1/2"
    I am running a cable actuated clutch tied to stock underfloor pedals.
     
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  12. Jan 15, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    Pressure plate is here and the 225 pressure plate is marked 412490700 just like the 66 chevy II clutch. The 1697C throwout bearing is still not here but says out for delivery so should be in at some point today. I'm starting to collect quite a few clutch parts that are going to make my shelf look really nice.
     
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  13. Jan 15, 2019
    Norcal69

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    It makes sense that the pressure plates would be the same. I think that the only difference between lots of gm clutch setups is the raised or flat diaphram and the pilot bearing ID.

    I know how you feel. This is the 3rd clutch Ive bought for my jeep in 4 years. First time I only ended up using the disc due to a weird pressure plate. This time it took two clutch kits to make one..... I could have put this together cheaper, but I have all LUK clutch parts this way. Steve's 71 has a hydraulic clutch in it and uses the gm clutch disc. We will most likely put together a clutch for him out of my leftover parts.
     
  14. Jan 15, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    I have only lived on this earth a few decades but I've put together quite a few clutches and I've done a few non-native swaps like the 225 to T18. Each of these instances went together with the first set of parts I bought (after sufficient measuring and cross reference - never based on any online available parts lists). I think what stumped me on this 225 to T18 setup was that I saw a post on this forum that mentioned the entire 77 CJ5 clutch working for this swap. Come to find out that is not the case...and now I have a lot of clutch parts tanning in front of my shop window.

    I will say that thus far everything has received a LUK clutch in my garage. I think LUK, VALEO, and SACHS are somehow related? I wish I knew of a good USA made clutch company but so far I have a Mexican disk, South African pressure plate, and the bearing is hopefully USA but I'm still starring at the mailbox for that one.
     
  15. Jan 15, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    So I got my new pressure plate and bearing...all fits correctly. The main issue now is whether to lengthen the pivot stud. If you look at the picture you can see the ball is fairly inline with the fork groove on the bearing. I am thinking it would be wise to extend the stud 1/8" to get the fork angled back on the bearing. How does your pivot line up? I would guess you have the same lineup that I do.

     
  16. Jan 16, 2019
    Norcal69

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    I can take a good look in the morning, I just came in from final installing the bell, trans and transfer as one unit. That’s one heavy pig...
    the stud on mine is the 1-1/2” oal length version. I don’t see where installing your adjustable stud at 1/8” longer would hurt.
     
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  17. Jan 16, 2019
    mike starck

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    Been following your clutch adventures as I recently went through this with my '71 w/225 and T 14. I had to extent the pivot ball out around a 1/4" to get the release arm in the sweet spot.Seems to be working ok even with the stock clutch cable.I do think the pressure plate (centerforce) is a lot stiffer then need be for the little V 6. The '71 one piece bellhousing uses a different type stud then the normal GM type that screws in from backside. I was able to make a spacer and extend the pivot stud without compromising any strength. mike
     
  18. Jan 16, 2019
    OzFin

    OzFin Vintage Jeep Guy

    Michigan
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    Not sure that this is useful for you but just in case it is...this fits into the Dauntless bell housing and made an appreciable difference in my application.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. Jan 16, 2019
    71CJ54WD

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    Thanks for the picture. I think I will go 1/4" taller later today just to get the arm a hair forward. I can always reposition the cable bracket if it falls out of range with the arm. Hoping to back the jeep out, put a tarp on it, and pull in my latest toy purchase today. At 28 degrees that may be a tough one.
     
  20. Jan 16, 2019
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 I've got Rubicon Rash 2019 Sponsor

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    Here is my complete setup. You can see that the arm has just a little angle on it. To test the clutch release I push the clutch with my foot while I use my right hand to try to turn the transmission gears. With my hand on the gears I am able to spin them easily with the pedal about 2" off the floor. Of course the engine torque is far stronger than my fingers spinning the gears; so I imagine that the clutch will start to slip way before 2" off the floor.

    [​IMG]
     
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