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Fino's 1970 Mini Build Thread

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Oct 3, 2014.

  1. Oct 6, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    It did - but it doesn't have a lot of horizontal reach. I had to remove the front bumper and winch to allow the picker to slide up between the front frame horns next to the grill to reach over the center of the engine. Otherwise, it worked perfect.
     
  2. Oct 6, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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    Thats great! I knew you could do it. I would drop the transmission before installing the engine. The only reason I suggested not doing that is its a lot easier to keep it in there to store it while you rebuild that engine rather than tripping over it for the next couple weeks.

    Why dont you borrow/buy an engine stand and break it down. It will make it easier for you to put back together!(y):)
     
  3. Oct 6, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    True - I am already tripping over all the other stuff I took off that is sitting around the shop (shop? ha...I mean the small space next to my wife's car in the garage). I am wondering if a load leveler (and no front grill) would allow for installation of the engine with transmission in place. But considering i just put a new input shaft on the T14, I would really prefer not to damage it and its not that bad to re-install with the transmission jack I have. Stuff to be considered later - got to figure out the rebuild.
    When I see the engine bay empty - its tempting to just take the fenders and grill off for some blasting and paint - bet it wouldn't be that hard to get the body off for some rust repair and paint....frame could use some touch up... no - just get it back running asap.

    Off to the Colo-Utah border area for a weekend of camping and some redrock/slickrock fun after work today. Unfortunately it would be more fun with jeep in tow, but my 29er needs some action and its only a couple day getaway (anniversary weekend - gotta love my wife - a weekend of MTBing, camping and beer drinking in Utah is right up her alley). We'll probably ride some trails or loops off the Kokopelli trail - so might get to put the Tacoma to a little 4wd use.
     
  4. Oct 6, 2016
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Pull the Grill and Fenders off - it's MUCH easier to put the whole drive train in and out and not have to raise things so high. You can barrow my load leveler for the motor and tranny jack if needed. I angle them in (tcase down), put that on the tranny jack, let it roll back as I slide the motor in the bay, drop in place, tie motor mounts, Tcase cross member and its all down hill from there.

    Its also MUCH easier to put the motor and tranny back together outside the rig ;)
     
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  5. Oct 20, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Engine is getting torn down - will hopefully get pics posted in a day or two. It is an old engine that has had some work done: been bored .030 over and some brass liners. No hardened valve seats though. Also had paint on the front of the block inside the front cover that was coming off. Not sure what that was all about - doesn't seem like you want paint that can peel off into the oil system. But it looks like the main damage came from the thrusting crank issue, and when it went, it ground a lot of metal into the oil system, wasted the gears in the oil pump and front cover. Obviously the main bearings, rod bearings and wrist pins are damaged from all the metal as well as some of the valve lifters were essentially plugged. Its got a ridge at the top of the cylinders. The crank is so damaged that machine shop suggested a new crank would be the better option rather than trying to fix this one. Can't tell for sure, but the camshaft doesn't have any obvious stamping on it, so it might be OEM or maybe generic OEM replacement. Guess that means a new cam could provide some additional performance.

    So deciding if I want to go through a full-rebuild or maybe look to an engine swap option. Its going to need another boring (total of .060 over which is max for piston availability), and of course all the new internal pieces for both top and bottom end. Hardened valve seats would also be installed, new Melling high volume oil pump, and new front cover to go with new timing chain, gears etc. The good news would be a totally new engine ready to run forever, and jeep is still 'original', at least in terms of period correct OEM replacement. Bad news, its a lot of money, especially getting shop work for boring and machining heads plus valve seats and wrist pins, add all new internals (was holding out some hope that might just hone it and re-use pistons and rods), and cost for new crank, and its still an odd-fire engine that has lots of difficulties getting a TBI system to work with it.

    Oldtime has a running 231 (I think its even fire by 1983) for sale (with some dauntless add-ons like heavy flywheel). One of my main interests is I like the even fire aspect as it could be run with TBI off the shelf (FiTech, EZ EFI etc) and HEI is built in. Cost is also quite a bit cheaper than rebuild with parts, but I would have to travel to St Louis. But even with such gas and travel expense it might still be a better option?

    Decisions....

    PS- I'll see if I can get some pics of the carnage posted tomorrow
     
  6. Oct 20, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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  7. Oct 20, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Yup that is not a bad price...but the machining cost is the bigger chunk. Of course, the price savings of the used engine can bite on the back end if it doesn't last. Never had to make this kind of decision before...

    Just to ask - is there any concern with boring .060 over? Overheating?
     
  8. Oct 20, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Nope.........
     
  9. Oct 20, 2016
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    I may even have a crank laying around from the parts motor you could check if needed.
     
  10. Oct 21, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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    I have one that will need to go a bit undersize that you can have for the cost of shipping, but that will be spendy.
     
  11. Oct 21, 2016
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Volvophilic

    Post Falls, ID
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  12. Oct 21, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    I know...for the price of the machine work and parts there is probably a much cheaper way to swap in something. AND would get modern improvements like FI. But I am just not up for all the other mods needed for an engine swap and I have some sort of interest to keep it more 'authentic' to the time period - but that is kind of always changing.

    Going to visit the machine shop this afternoon and chat about the 225 block. Have to decide whether to let them boil it out, magnaflux it and begin machine work or take it home. IF I were thinking of putting this on the shelf for a while (say for some future project) and swapping in something else in the the current CJ, should it still get it boiled out and tested for micro-cracks or just let sit as is? That is a pretty big if, but might as well consider it a little bit and learn what I can.
     
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  13. Oct 21, 2016
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    IF your thinking of using - have it checked while it's there. That can keep it in play or make it go away and end confusion and IF games in your mind. I also have a bare block that the crank came from.

    The 4.3 would be a good idea - but there is a lot to it and not as cheap as folks may think. Based on the things I've seen from you, I'd say stick with the 225 or 231 - I think you will be fine with them and can get what you want at your pace that way.

    BTW - your always welcome to come down, see what I have, talk about options, drink a beer... won't say it will help, but your welcome to try :p
     
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  14. Oct 21, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    And I'll just set this here:...........New NOS 225 O/F short block still in the crate
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Oct 21, 2016
    Focker

    Focker That's a terrible idea...What time? Staff Member 2019 Sponsor

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    That's just mean! :mad:
     
  16. Oct 21, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Tarry - when you first posted I was using my work computer which likes to block pics and attachments. I kind of remembered what it probably looked like from previous thread postings somewhere. But it wasn't bothering me much until now as I am home and on my personal computer seeing the pic. That does look nice...

    Went over and chatted with the shop today - they pointed out some damage I was not aware off, but mostly doesn't affect what needs to be done. Just indicates an old worn engine that had a fairly budget rebuild at some point. So, they are going to boil it and magnaflux it and I can wait until Wed next week to decide whether to have them start the machining or not.

    Its weekend...
     
  17. Oct 25, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Hopefully find out tomorrow that the block is in good shape and ready to machine and install new valve guides and seats. But here is my crazy idea...

    As a rebuild is going to require all new internals, including crankshaft, is it worth thinking about converting to even fire. The ONLY reason I am even considering this is for ease of potential TBI and how they don't necessarily love the odd-fire tach signal. From what little research I've done, there is some concern over the angles between the connecting rods on the crank journals causing a weakness. At the same time, the later 231 blocks were OEM even fire so is it really that much of a concern. In addition to all the internals that would need to be even fire compatible, it would require a new distributor and probably something I have not thought of.

    This really isn't that big of a concern - just something I dazingly came across in my mind. TBI can be made to work with odd-fire - its just a bit more of a hassle and figuring out fuel delivery is probably a bigger concern from my standpoint anyway. But if the cost of parts is the same, it could avoid some hassle somewhere down the road if I try to go TBI.

    Yup - probably thinking off my rocker a bit but...
     
  18. Oct 25, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Is your question whether or not you should go even fire vs Odd or can you convert an Odd to even fire?

    In either case the Odd fire crank shaft has two rods per journal while the Even fire also has two rods per journal but the journal is split so that the rods / pistons fire in an Even Fire arrangement. Not sure what your talking about when say concern over angles between the connecting rods?

    As far as Odd Fire TBI I think Chuck (Warlock) has that pretty will figured out..........

    Question: Have you been able to find a replacement Odd-fire Crankshaft in good shape?
     
  19. Oct 25, 2016
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

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    Question is whether I should try to convert it to even fire when putting everything back together. I know Chuck has figured out TBI, but I haven't(y). Maybe one day I will - I have to have something to be thinking about although I will be running the 2g after I get everything back together. You are correct about the split journals, that is what I was getting at - didn't know if that causes any concerns. The everything your read on the internet is true seems to have some concern about that...although I am guessing that its not that big of a deal.

    Have found a new replacement crank that I can order. If I can cross-paths with Chuck or someone nearby that has one then I can go that route as well assuming it can be ground or polished or whatever it needs. Seems like its cost prohibitive to get a used one shipped here that will still need work.
     
  20. Oct 26, 2016
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2020 Sponsor

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    I dont think you can just chuck an even fire crank in an odd fire engine if thats what you're thinking. If you are looking to go even fire 231 so that you can FI it, I would bypass all that and just go to the 4.3 FI that you can pull complete and running for 500 bucks or less. The easiest thing would be to rebuild what you have and drop it back in. If I wanted to go FI I would just go get a 4.3 FI engine with all the electronics and put it in. There will be adapters and modification though.
     

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