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Dj-5c Restoration - 3s + 1w

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by Jeff Bromberger, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Mar 1, 2020
    shwarzwald

    shwarzwald New Member

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    Was following this thread for I have a potential dj5 coming my way. Quite the journey reading this has been.
     
  2. Mar 3, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    So, this was a busy weekend. Got a lot accomplished underneath. Yes, I now have items crossed off of my master "to-do list. Here's the major victories:
    • Rear axle and springs all sorted out. This includes the shim that goes under the right side (the opposite of the left shim on the front). Everything is torqued down and ready to go.
    • Rear brakes (10 inch) are all complete, and I have new brake lines plumbed from the wheel cylinders all the way up to the distribution valve
    • Front brakes are now all complete, including the auto-adjusters. And, as an added bonus, I now understand how they work!
    Last item up front is to plumb in the brakes and wrap up the master cylinder.

    Speaking of which: if I am using a vacuum bleeder, do I still need to perform a bench bleed on the Master Cylinder before I start?

    Expecting to get back to engine work this coming weekend, if the Powers That Be allow it to happen. It's been cold and rainy most of the time I wanted to be out painting an engine...
     
  3. Mar 3, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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  4. Mar 11, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    So, with the heat and the sun comes progress...
    Block-Right-Primed.jpg Block-Left-Primed.jpg

    And, if you think that this looks good, then I hit ya with this:
    Block-Right-Painted.jpg Block-Left-Painted.jpg

    I also have the oil pan and rocker cover finished as well. The head is a royal PITA with masking, so it's only in primer right now, and the last pieces are the white metal of the timing cover, the thermostat housing and the alternator bracket.

    FWIW: This is two coats of Rustoleum Engine Primer (grey) and several super light coats of Seymour EN-66 AMC Blue. That stuff is tissue thin, and it's got almost no body to it outside of the metal flake. Super easy to get blobs, drips, runs and the like. I had to recall my old subway graffiti days to get good coverage. That's a lesson I never thought I'd use again...
     
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  5. Mar 11, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Oooh shiny!
     
  6. Mar 11, 2020
    Dne007

    Dne007 Member 2020 Sponsor

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    I Love it!!!
     
  7. Mar 12, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    So, talk to me about mounting the manifolds. Should I go for bolts, or research and find studs? I am leaning towards the latter option, slathering them with anti seize so that I don't have to fight when they need to get adjusted.
    Anybody got a solid opinion? Or a trusted vendor where I can buy a dozen pieces without getting placed over a barrel?

    FWIW: 8 long bolts, 3 short bolts, one stud originally used.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  8. Mar 12, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

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    When mounting the manifold, I suggest if you go with the studs which is a good option, use the anti-seize and brass nuts. That will fix any future issues if you need to take it apart.
     
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  9. Mar 12, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member

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    i used the original bolts and studs with copper never seize on the 232 and the wifes 258. they use a funky washer under the heads. junked the 232 and have worked on the 258 since no trouble with the bolts coming back out.
     
  10. Mar 16, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Friday update: Now that the paint has dried, the fumes are gone, and my head is clear, it's time to put it all back together. And the lessons that come with it, of course.

    Invert the block and put the new main bearings (uppers) in place. In case anybody's keeping score, the rebuild has my main bearings down 0.010 from the standard. This goes with the +0.060 on the pistons. I will certainly be the last idjit paying to have this block rebored and the like!

    Once the bearings are in (and it took a minute to make sure that I was using the right half of the set!), then came the assembly lube. Best description is sorta like a cross between red snot and red cake icing in a tube. Yeesh. Slipperier than snail trails. OK, with that slimed around, in goes the crankshaft. Never have I ever put something so "exact" together. You had no option here - it only sat in one way, and if you were off a smidge, it didn't move down at all. But when it was all aligned, it sat in those bearings like a cold Coke in your hand on a summer day. So refreshing.

    Next, seat the lower bearings in the caps. And, now, bust out the Plastigage. For those who have never used it (and this was me), it comes in as a super thin piece of green pasta in a magic envelope. You clean the bearing that you want to measure, cut a piece of the Plastigage with a sharp razor blade and then lay it gingerly in.
    PG_Before.jpg
    Carefully lay on the bearing/cap and tighten it down. Do this for all 7 main bearings, and then slowly go round the 14 bolts in a pattern shown in the TSM and torque that puppy down. My book shows 80 ft-lbs, so you make a pass at 20, then 40, then 60 and finally 80. That's a lot of work right there, I gotta say. Now that everything is tight, take a deep breath, and start loosening it all up!

    I unbolted the Number 4 (center) bearing and removed the cap. And you get to see something like this:
    PG_After.jpg

    Smooshed down. Flatter than the proverbial crepe in Paris. Next step is to grab that magic envelope, for it holds the last part of the puzzle - it is also a measurement device. Hold the colored bar pattern against the smoosh and it'll tell you how thick the crushed PG is, and therefore how much clearance between the bearing and the journal. Here's what I got:

    PG_Measure.jpg

    I'm between 0.0015 and 0.002, so I am perfect for clearance. Carefully, using only your fingers, remove the smoosh from both the journal and the bearing in the cap, and that's that.

    Once you're done with all seven, take a breather and grab that assembly lube again. This time, put the red goo on all of the journals (instead of PlastiGage) and then pop on the bearing caps. And tighten in pattern. And then torque them down again. When complete, you should have this:

    All_Mains_Finished.jpg

    I put the bolt back in the main shaft and tried to turn the whole thing over. Oh yeah - it moves! And well! I swapped out my socket wrench for the torque wrench, and was surprised at how little effort it took to turn the whole thing. Under 10 ft-lbs once it was moving. That's just on Assembly Lube. Not bad for parasitic loss, eh?

    I forgot to mention that bearing number 3 is a thrust bearing, which controls front to back motion. That had to get measured with a feeler gauge, and it got special attention from the Assembly Lube Fairy.

    Oh, and there is super special magic when installing the rear main oil seal. You need voodoo incantations to make sure that you're inserted correctly, seated deeply enough and that you won't leak. You never want to leak outta that seal - it's a monster to fix later on.

    Let's wash up and get dinner. Saturday is another day...
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2020
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  11. Mar 16, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Saturday/Sunday installment brought to you by the numbers 11, 32 and 24!

    Not many pictures exist of this episode but, like the Bible, what a story, eh?

    Saturday morning rolls around and it's time to get moving. So I grab my shiny new pistons and related stuff, put it front and center on the workbench. Bust out the piston tools, and finally I can get to work. And it seems that most of the work is pure measurement.

    For each of the two top rings and the two lower oil control rings, you need to insert them in into their proper cylinder squarely and then measure the gap. I'm using a set of rings from Hastings, so the box has three numbered sleeves. While ring One and Two look alike, with careful examination you see that the second ring has a mark for the "up" side where the first ring does not. Oh, OK. Why not make 'em all have a mark? Don't ask me.

    The trick to getting them placed in the bore squarely is to use an un-ringed piston as a press, and then slide them halfway down the bore. When you do this, you should see (on my 232), that the gap is between 0.010 and 0.020. And it is, according to my feeler gauge. I gotta say that I am enjoying the ease that putting together a freshly machined block is. If I had to do this with a worn engine, there's a higher possibility that this would need a lot of jiggery.

    Oh, and there's a different gap size for the super thin oil control retaining rings. They can have a huge gap compared to the compression ones.

    You also need to measure the rings in their proper grooves on the piston as well. Not much glamour in this.

    Finally it is time to put the rings on. And the oil control ones are so fragile feeling that I learned to do this by hand. First goes the corrugated center ring, and then one thin flat band below and one above. When the three are together, you're done there. Next, bust out the funky pliers to get rings two and one in place. They are certainly stiff, and they don't close down as much as they were before you installed them! What a scare!

    Finally, you must compress the rings to get 'em into the bores. And there are two tools out there for this. First (which I would have preferred) is a custom machined funnel and you just punch the piston through it. It'll compress the rings before they reach the cylinder, no thinking required. Of course, I never found one that'd do what I wanted so it was Option Two to the rescue - the spring loaded ratchet clamp. Took a few moments of experimentation and then it's simple to use once you get it installed. Need a third hand most times (or a table top and you're working upside down).

    All ready to go and... Oh crap. I gotta put the new bearing into the journal hole. Gotta pop off two cap nuts. And *that* is where the train went off the rails, Ladies and Gentlemen. The machine shop trued the bearing surfaces when they mounted and balanced the new pistons. To do this machining, they snugged up the nuts on the bolts. And by snug, I mean curse at the hamhead who used a nuclear powered steam hammer to pound those poor little suckers on.

    You have to imagine that these nuts are kinda small. And they're in such a place that you cannot get a socket on them. It is 100% wrench territory. And I have yet to see a 3 foot long 1/2 inch wrench to use as a breaker bar. So I am trying to back off what feels like 100 ft-lbs with a 6 inch long Craftsman (from the old days) wrench. It's now Monday morning and the hollow of my right hand is still hurting - I kid you not.

    I get the bingbongs off using my deadblow mallet through the journal and sheer will power (and the weight of my body) on this wrench. Sooner or later, maybe five minutes each, the two nuts surrender. Just think - I have ten more to look forward to!

    New bearing surfaces go in. They, too, are cut 0.010 under, so now I know all of my new measurements.

    Rotate the crankshaft (see the last update) so that the piston is at BDC. While this does little for the insertion, it makes reattaching the nuts easier. Red assembly lube everywhere and then pop that piston into the bore.

    Yeah, that took some creativity. Now I know why I read reviews about spending the extra cash and not using that spring sleeve ring compressor. You had to center the piston in the cylinder bore and *BOP* it in from the top down, using the butt end of your rubberized mallet. At the beginning, it's all a party. But once you get close to the rings hitting the block, you get the sweat beads on your face. The ring compressor must be true/square down on the block deck. And you've gotta make sure to *BOP* at the right speed and angle to get things in in one shot. You can pause between the oil and compression rings, but there's one and only one *BOP* to get all three oil components in, and the same one *BOP* for the two compression rings. When the piston is in the block and the ring compressor pops off the top, then your job is halfway done. Now it's make sure that the rod bolts fall evenly across the journal and then *BOP* that sucker down until it stops. Rotate the block over and attach the connecting rod caps (with the lower bearing surface) snug but not too tight. We're going to have to do a PlastiGage run on these bearings, too, but not just yet. Rotate block back to right side up and go on to Piston 6. Then 2 and 5 (with a crank rotation - see the first two pistons move!). Then finally 3 and 4 (and another crank rotation).

    If you've survived this far, you should have this smiling back at you:
    Pistons_In.jpg

    Hit the cylinder walls liberally with your favorite motor oil and gingerly rotate the crank. Admire your handiwork as the pistons go up and down. See the clean oil get little grey flecks as the rings and bores start their magical dance of mating. Get a drink, wipe your sweat, you're not done yet. Not by any stretch.

    So, I want to get this phase done already, so it's mop up any excessive oil and invert the block upside down and let's get to the journals. Time to Plastigage and torque.

    But the nuts look like crap. They're starting to round off at the edges. And who wants to install beater nuts on a brand new engine? Off to the hardware store.

    And I make this a "miracle" run. I take all of the left over baggies of nuts/bolts and decide let's get new everything. Who puts rusty crap back on a snazzy new block, eh? So I get new bolts for the oil pan, the rocker cover, the main bolt in the crank shaft, etc. If it can be replaced, it's only money. But then it comes down to those nuts. Yeah, they're a little taller than I'd expect, but maybe it is because you need to use a wrench on them and not a socket.

    But them there nuts are odd nuts. They're bigger than 5/16 and smaller than 3/8. The outside is half inch, but internally, huh?!? Not metric, I can assure you of that. And the hardware store that has every size of nut and bolt in Grade 8 lets me down. None of the staff have a freakin' clue what this is. I hear the unoffered suggestions of "just put 'em back and forget 'em" and "maybe you can get more in a junk yard?". Oh poop.

    The sun sets on Saturday. I am a desperate man.

    Sunday morning comes and I do what any self respecting man does - set out to beat this one down. I make the one hour pilgrimage to Summit Racing in Arlington. It's an hour drive and they make overpriced sound like a marketing theme. But if anybody would know anything about odd parts for an odd vintage block, maybe there?

    Takes an hour of measuring, consulting and referrals and then we reach the conclusion. "Yup, that's an odd one!" I now present to you the screwyest part of the nut and bolt industry. It seems that Pontiac used (and then AMC stole) a custom thread size for some engine bolts. It's 11/32-24. It's so popular that you don't usually even learn of these in the real world. The Ford and Mopar guys were flabbergasted, looking at this nut like it fell off of an alien UFO. The GM folk just hung their heads, probably wishing they could find the Pontiac guy who thought that this was a good idea and make a meatloaf of them.

    They are a custom order from ARP, and I'll have them by the end of the week (provided they don't come down with Corona Virus). Oddly enough, once we found them in the catalog (ten for $10), we discovered that Crown sells them as well, for $2 each. Ponder that level of markup...

    While I was there, I also grabbed (well, paid for - it's also being shipped) the A727 rebuild kit. This block is almost a finished project, so it'll be transmission time in the next 2 weeks.
     
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  12. Mar 16, 2020
    timgr

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  13. Mar 17, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    This post is a status report, whereas the next is a whole messa questions. Read one, both, your choice. And now with today's episode.

    Since I am waiting around for parts to come (or the end of the world to come, whichever is first), I took some time to look on-line at other people's work. And they not only have pretty engines, they have sexy manifolds, too. Mine is crud coated and in a rusty funk. This will not do! Time to get them cleaned and painted.

    Now, I was warned by a veteran mechanic not to try to separate the intake and exhaust manifolds. Let rusty dogs lie, so to speak. But (and I did not know this at the time) when I was unbolting the manifold from the head, I took off two of the four nuts that hold the two together anyhow. How bad could those two other nuts be? Not bad at all. I made sure to go slow and level and then eased off with a few painful squeaks. Last part was to remove the stub end of the tailpipe from the exhaust manifold. One side was held in by a nut/bold combo. Nut wouldn't move and the bold head kept slipping on me. That was odd. I managed to get a hacksaw in between the manifold and the flange, and cut that bolt in half and out it came. Seems that the previous yutz who owned this block had problems, so he (presumably a he) bought a new bolt and *ground half of the head off* so that it could fit in the tight space afforded by the actual manifold. Where was the stud? Who knows.

    The other side, of course, is the story. This had no stud either, just a bolt. And the head snapped off quicker than you can say "Whuh?". Now I have to drill this bolt out and use an extractor for removal. Fun crap!

    But with the two apart, I got to see some amazing things. Not much going on with the exhaust manifold besides crud. This is the central pelvis of the collector, staring down the exhaust flapper:
    Exhaust_Manifold_Flap.jpg

    My heart stopped when I saw the intake manifold. Of course, the tubes are lined with bright orange rust - side effect of leaving it open to the elements. I've already paid the price for this with the pistons/cylinders... But here's the mating surface where the two manifolds come together:
    Intake_Manifold_Lower.jpg

    Yeah. And since this is a 1975 block, you gotta see the EGR side of the fence:
    Intake_Manifold_EGR.jpg

    YES. That top port is plugged with some sort of white cement. I can only suspect that it was PO's attempt to leave the emissions parts on the block but not have them functional.

    Speaking of the emissions parts, here's a fun one for you. I have the 1974 TSM for the DJ-5. The original motor had very little emissions going on with it. That changed in 1975, which is when this block is from. I don't have a 1975 TSM, but I have the 1974 TSM for *regular* Jeeps, and they have a huge chapter on emissions. What I cannot figure out is that it seems that I have a configuration that isn't supposed to exist. As in:
    EGR_Complete.jpg

    That's my EGR on the lower left, on it's back. Riding piggyback on it is a spacer block and a California Only Exhaust Back Pressure Sensor. What's odd is that, according to the book, this was only installed on V8 engines and isn't required for the inline 6. The EGR is shot - deader than the proverbial doornail:
    EGR_Inner.jpg

    Yeah, the input pintle is black, and outlet to the manifold is once again cemented shut. Not what I was expecting to find.

    Before anyone asks me, the answer is NO. I am not going to delete the EGR from the system. I will leave off the California addition, as not only is this not California, but I don't think it was supposed to be there originally. It makes me wonder again whether this was a Cali engine (and the red color it had) and whether or not it ever lived in a Jeep before. Hard to say.

    Tomorrow, both manifolds go off to "The Dip" and I will see if their machine guys can remove the fractured bolt while they have it on the bench. Then I need to find a low cost EGR valve, as they all seem to be in the $60 range.
     
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  14. Mar 18, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

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    One day later. Manifolds are off getting dipped and blasted. Oh, and they'll even remove the busted bolt for me. What a deal, I tell ya!

    So, here's the questions for all:

    a) HEI. Has anybody got experience with this unit? Red Cap Thingie. Some of the reviews are great, others are so-so. What's the big deal about the distributor gear and the cam shaft? I think I have the factory cast iron cams (they weigh a ton and they aren't milled/billet work), so will this work?

    b) Priming the oil pump. This must be done before the distributor goes in. So, what's your suggestion for that magic priming tool? It looks like any sort of screwdriver attached to a drill might get the job done. So, should I hustle of to Dollar Tree, find a cheapie flat head, cut the hand off and I'm golden? And how do I know if I still have more priming to do? I presume that it's not so much that I'm priming the pump but that I'm filling the oil galleys to the crankshaft, the lifters and cam, etc. All of that stuff, right? If I put my mechanical oil pressure gauge into the block as I'm priming, I should see oil pressure go up?

    c) Now that I've dropped the manifolds off, what should I do with them? The intake is easy - prime and paint. It never gets "too hot" the way the exhaust one will. But what's the best way to protect the exhaust manifold?

    d) Motor oil. I keep hearing that the 232 only likes "conventional" oil and not Mobil-1. As long as I use 10W40, what's the harm that can come from the synthetic? Of course, I have to drop in a bottle of the zinc additive to break the engine in, and I may toss one in every other oil change just in case. Also, for the initial break-in, should I use something thinner than 10W40?

    e) Gasket In A Tube. There are places where the TSM calls for Permatex #2, such as on the rear oil seal. That is a slow cure, never harden sort of goo. But there are other places where it calls for an AMC branded product. It's used around the multiple sections of the oil pan seal. Is it safe to guess that they're referring to a standard RTV compound as opposed to the Perm #2?

    f) Sealing the intrusions into the water jacket. Things like the CTO switch, the engine temperature sensor and the like. I don't want to use RTV if I can help it - is the Permatex #2 (the non-hardening stuff) good enough to get the job done? Should I use teflon plumbers tape instead?

    g) LATE ADDITION: For the CTO, do I want the one with 2 ports or three? One comes from the vacuum source, the other goes to possibly several things: EGR, Distributor for advance, etc. Tips here for vacuum routing?

    That's it for now. Thanks for sticking it out so far. Expecting parts in the UPS truck tomorrow!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2020
  15. Mar 18, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    What distributor(s) do you have now?
     
  16. Mar 18, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    The original 1974 one, with the points/condensor. Yeah, I can just use that one if I wanted to...
     
  17. Mar 18, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    The Delco is a fine distributor. You could just put the Pertronix conversion in it and call it good. You can use points or the Pertronix to trigger a MSD 6A module, if you want a hotter spark. You can run a hotter coil with the Pertronix, if you want to mimic the HEI. A hot coil is all that's "high energy" about the HEI. Big transistor turning a high turns ratio coil on and off.

    The aftermarket HEIs are known for hard steel gears that chew up the cam gear on V8s. Maybe not so much of a problem with the sixes... I'd have to search old posts.
     
  18. Mar 18, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member

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    you can swap the gear off the points delco onto an hei for a chevy inline six.
     
  19. Mar 18, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I have one of those distributors in my junk box. The first year distributor for the 230 HEI came with the coil mounted on the side of the block. Chevy continued using that design for the Blazer, presumably because the cap and heavy coil on the end of that angled shaft would not stay put off the pavement.

    upload_2020-3-18_18-24-24.png
     
  20. Mar 18, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    The reason I am looking to a new distributor is because the old one needs to be rebuilt. The vacuum advance does not move at all, the main shaft is scratchy plus the whole unit is loaded up with that fine red dust that was everywhere in the cow field that I rescued it from.

    I see that I can drop the gear off my old distributor spindle by removing a roll pin. Is that semi standard?
     

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