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Cluster Gear Teeth In A T14

Discussion in 'Early CJ-5 and CJ-6 Tech' started by juffer, Jul 10, 2019.

  1. Jul 10, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Netherlands
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    Hello,

    I have a very specific question for someone with a manual or experience with the T 14 Teeth count
    My CJ 5 is from 1969 with a 225 V6 and T14.

    • My cluster gear counts 31-24-15-14.
    • my gears teeth are 20-26-30-28.
    1. Does somebody know if these teeth match? I only need to know for the second gear. There is my doubt. ( gear 26 and cluster 24)
    Now my other questions are;
    1. is this cluster original? I read on internet the cluster teeth count belongs to a 232/258 engine
    2. does the second gear ( 26 teeth) matches the cluster second( 24 teeth)
    3. could it be possible someone changed the cluster and not changed the second gear?
    Because I have some clunking play on the second, The others are playfree

    Hope to hear from you guys

    Regards
    Juffer
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  2. Jul 10, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 wasn't me Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    went out and looked at blown up trans (V6)
    I get 25T for second gear on cluster . 26T on gear
     
  3. Jul 10, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Thank you very much

    That is the proof that my cluster does not match the gear

    It did run for more than 10 years. I now have confirmation on that .
    I did also got a confirmation that on a cluster with 24 a second gear with 27 should fit. So I can order a 27 teeth second gear from E bay. Because a cluster with 25 is very hard to find

    I will post an update if it works. may take a while, due to shipping to Europe
     
  4. Jul 10, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Where are you getting your information? Seems to me you have a mix of old and new parts in this transmission. The input gear from a V6 will be too long for a 232/258 application (pretty sure) and whatever input gear you have must match the cluster gear. If everything else meshes properly, by all means get the 2nd gear that matches the cluster gear.

    If the V6 ratio is 25:26 and your cluster gear has 24 teeth, the tooth count on the matching gear must go up, ie 27 teeth for 2nd is reasonable.

    I suggest you call Herm the Overdrive Guy in Oregon and talk to him about this. He sells these rebuilt transmissions and can very likely get you the gears you need so they will properly mesh. Herm The Overdrive Guy | Shift into High Gear! I have not talked with him, but he is said to have a lot of knowledge of these transmissions, and responsive to phone calls.

    Other people that might know would be Richard (?) at R&P 4WD (no longer in business, but he's still around), or maybe members Nick (nickmil) or Ken (oldtime). It would not be impolite or improper to send these members a personal message ("PM" known to the forum software as a "conversation" I think) and ask your specific question. At worst, you will get no reply.

    I have a parts book for the 232/258 Jeeps, and their 2nd and cluster for these applications is definitely different from the 1969 T-14.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  5. Jul 10, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Hi Tim

    The info is from www.cj-jeep.com ( see picture) And from Ebay NOS4jeeps. I asked him what teeth does match the 24 cluster and he gave me 27 for the gears
    And above Twin gave me the 25 /26 like you mentioned. So I think my 24/26 is no good like the video.

    I will phone Herm and send some pm's to Nick and Ken.

    Thank you for the reply

    regards
    Juffer/Ewoud
     

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  6. Jul 10, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    A new cluster is 322 dollars ( 25 teeth to fit my 26 second)
    A new second gear 60 dollars ( 27 teeth to fit my existing 24 cluster)

    So worth to try a new second gear I think

    But I will call Herm

    regards
    Juffer
     
  7. Jul 10, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    2nd gear is a common service part, so it should be available and inexpensive. There is a bushing inside it that wears out, and this makes the transmission come out of gear when decellerating.

    Likely you have the solution, but a call to Herm might be helpful.

    Interesting that it's only 2nd that's different.
     
  8. Jul 10, 2019
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Yes lots of gear backlash in that video.
    In other words the 2nd speed gear diameter is a tad too small......
    And I've seen a mix match of T98/T18 reverse idler gears that is very similar to your situation.

    I'm not very up on the Borg Warner T14's but...
    I'll look into my books a bit later when I get the chance.
    The tooth counts obviously effect the ratio provided.

    That said it's obvious to me that the specific tooth count is in large part related to the power train assembly.
    225 torque output vs 232 or 258 torque output .
    Both of these T14 applications have 3.73 DR as standard so that remains a constant in the power train assembly.
     
  9. Jul 10, 2019
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Doing some quick arithmetic, the forward gears for the 232/258 would be 3.1:1, 1.74:1 and 1:1. The V6 would have a 1.61:1 second gear. Does not seem like much of a difference, only 8%. I know with my 258/T-14 3.73 CJ-6 way back when, I would hardly ever visit first gear, since it would easily pull away in 2nd if I was rolling at all. Seems backwards to me - If anything, you'd expect the reverse change, since the 258 has a lower stroke ratio (lower RPM torque peak) than the 232 or 225, and the 232 has a lower stroke ratio than the 225.

    (changed this to reflect convention, where bore < stroke is under-square, and implicitly lower, I presume)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  10. Jul 10, 2019
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Yeah Tim I follow what your saying about the ratios.

    I looked into my books.
    They are all pre 1984 so this is not conclusive but It looks to me that Jeep only ever used 2 lengths for Main Drive Gears.
    10-1/2" OAL MDG's for use with straight sixes and 11-1/2" OAL MDG's for use with Dauntless 225.

    All Jeeps seem to be running the 1.61 second speed ratio excepting late model (postal) DJ's.
    The typical Jeep Countershaft Gear has 31 25 15 14 tooth counts .... excluding those 1970's postal DJ's with 232 engines.

    According to the books Dauntless T14 should be running a 991018 second speed gear.

    Seems like a lot of very small changes for a very limited effect.

    And from what I understand 1980's S10's also used a version of the T14 transmission.
     
  11. Jul 11, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    Thanks

    Yes I think a 991018( 26 teeth) is the one to fit the 25 cluster. But I have an 24 on the cluster. so I will try a 27 teeth on the second.
    A new cluster is around 350 dollars . So first try the new second gear.

    Does the book give teeth for the postal cluster/gear

    regards
    Juffer
     
  12. Aug 3, 2019
    juffer

    juffer Juffer Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    FYI. I found a 27 Tht. for the second gear. It fits perfect. Now there is no play anymore. Shifting Good. Did a rebuild with the help of this thread. T14 Rebuild

    Very good help. Thanks for your imput. Up to the next challenge " Ring and pinion"
     
    Twin2 likes this.

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