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74 Cj5 Build

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by snoobly, Mar 31, 2020.

  1. Mar 31, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Hi All,
    Newer to this forum, but I have a little bit of CJ5 experience. Posting my build to have a memory for myself and for others to enjoy if they wish. Also looking to join a community of enthusiasts!
    Little history - Had a 1973 CJ5 while in College that I enjoyed building It had the 4.2L with a Weber carb and a 3 speed transmission. The tub was rotting off it so I found a fiberglass tub and slapped it on. Had a lot of fun with that Jeep until somebody totaled it while it was parked. Sad day. Here's a pic of it from back in the day a little while before it was totaled.
    [​IMG]
    After several years of no Jeep, a couple jobs, and now a wife and child, I decided I missed wrenching on a Jeep. So I convinced my better half to allow me to go and purchase a 1974 Jeep CJ5 with a carbed Chevy 350.
    Here are a few photos of the day I bought it in January 2020.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Quickly decided this Jeep wasn't going to have a hard top, neither did the last one..

    [​IMG]
    A little VIN research leads me to believe it originally had the AMC 304 in it.

    [​IMG]
    Had a 4 barrel Holley.

    [​IMG]

    Needless to say it didn't run perfectly, nowhere near as good as my old 73. I don't know much about carbs, so i decided one of the first big upgrades would be to try the Junkyard TBI swap.
    Ended up pulling the wiring harness, TBI, IAC, and several of the other parts from a 91 Chevy truck from the local junkyard. Rest of the parts I bought new.
    It was a fun challenge getting all the wires connected to the right pins etc... Here's a few photos of the conversion. The Jeep now starts again and I am in the process of learning how to use Tunerpro to tune. Been a bit of a process.
    [​IMG]
    Dirty as heck TBI assembly
    [​IMG]
    Holley carb still on motor
    [​IMG]
    TBI assembly in process of being rebuilt. Here it is completely apart and just about done cleaning
    [​IMG]
    Going back together
    [​IMG]
    Mounted
    [​IMG]
    Rats nest of wires as I line each one out from the sensors to the ECU pin

    You may have noticed that it has some rust and a missing body support or two. I am also in the works of cutting out the rust and welding in new metal. While at it, I installed a 2" body lift and 2" wheel spacers. The 2" lift has me concerned for the intermediate shaft of the steering column. It's connected back up, but I am concerned about it popping out or something if I go anywhere that requires flex.
    The wiring was a mess. I now have working brake lights, but I am still in the process of figuring out how to get the blinkers to work.. only the rear light up with the blinker switch, but they don't blink. Love wiring issues.
    [​IMG]
    2" body lift and wheel spacers on. Re did Dash.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Removed the diamond plate and found an awful lot of rust. One thing I have learned from my past two Jeep projects, diamond plate is either hiding rust, or going to create rust. Started welding new metal in.

    Future mods will include working on the body work and paint, Floor pans, welding up a new exhaust (I don't like the side exit, I want it to go all the way back), disc conversion, getting real Jeep Tail lights, New tires, Maybe a small suspension lift, Better lighting up front, Power Steering, hydraulic clutch.

    If there are any experienced users of Tunerpro, let me know, I could use a little guidance.
    Stay Tuned, I will post updates as I make progress. Thanks for reading and thanks for all the helpful information from the forum!
     
    Rich M., Muzikp and Fly Navy like this.
  2. Mar 31, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    What are your questions? Also, you might consider joining GearHead Efi. Lots of help there. GearHead EFI
     
  3. Mar 31, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Hi Ed,
    I have been spending lots of time on GearHead EFI. I got a lot of the information for the conversion from there. I have been looking at the spreadsheets for data logging to get a good tune, but the BLM and INT stay at 128 constantly. There are excel sheets that help with the math for tuning, but they don't seem to work because the datalog is spitting out 128 constantly, and from what I understand means the computer thinks all is perfect.
    My idle also refuses to get down to 600-700. It tries to in closed loop, but for some reason, it can't and it jumps back up to 900-1000.
    I am thinking it might be something to do with the spark tables in the base tune I am using, so I have been researching that trying to understand it all.

    Got any advice there?
     
  4. Mar 31, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    I just looked at your posts over on GearHead-EFI. Based on your comment about the o2 sensor location and the fact the BLM and INT stay at 128, I question if you are getting into or staying in closed loop. A heated o2 sensor would be a good investment if your sensor is located quite a ways down stream in the exhaust system. Is the engine coming up to operating temperature and match the engine temp called for in the code? Is the base timing set correctly and agree with the base timing set in the code? What is the IAC position count at idle?
    I haven't used $42 mask that you are using for the Chev 5.7 but I certainly can. Dave W. on GearHead can be very helpful as others of course so ask a lot of questions there if you want their help.
     
  5. Mar 31, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    I forgot to mention. Get a VSS and install it. Your thinking, "I do not have VSS at this time. I might invest in the future, but ideally I want to get this running pretty good and then add it if necessary." is backwards. For the ECM to control the engine it needs input from all the sensors to do it's job correctly. Will the ECM operate engine without the VSS, yes. Will the ECM operate the engine well in closed loop without VSS input, no. Idling issues can be attributed to not having a VSS. Are there any other sensors not installed?

    A source for the VSS: Speed Sensor 2PRS
     
  6. Apr 1, 2020
    neohic

    neohic Gentleman Jeepist

    Woodland Park, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2018
    Messages:
    178
    I recall seeing this one pop up for sale. Good to see it going to a good home! Looks like a great start. (y)
     
  7. Apr 2, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    I am getting into closed loop, but not sure how accurately. I am working on a new exhaust to get the O2 a little closer, Ill look into getting a heated one also.
    I need to go back and look at the data logs to see what I am operating at. I know for sure that I am getting to 150-160 off the top of my head. I'll check the tune to be sure that is hot enough to get it to idle down to 650-700, but I am pretty certain it is.
    Base timing is set at 0 degrees on the crank. I didn't know that should ever change unless cammed or something. The code is pretty stock, so I do believe that should agree with each other.

    I am hoping to get some datalog time in this weekend, I am sure I will have plenty of questions and I'll be sure to post them over there at Gearhead also.

    I will definitely look into VSS... Looking at this one actually, unless someone can point me to a better one in a similar price range - ROSTRA 250-4165 Universal VSS Signal Generator Magnet Kit for sale online | eBay - It's the Rostra 250-4165 that you can find on Summit Racing also. I don't think it's the culprit of the problem I am currently have as I haven't been doing much driving, mainly just idling. But I did some more research and I see there's lot of reviews about the drive-ability being A LOT better.
    Also looking the Painless Performance 60115 (2ppm), but seems it's been discontinued?? I can only find the 60116 which is 4ppm, I am trying to figure out if that can be made to work with the 7747. Anyone know?
    The only other sensors not installed are smog related (EGR). I have Knock sensor, NB O2, IAC, MAF, TPS, and Temp. Do I need to disable the Air Diverter? I see that pop up as turning on in the datalog, but I have no idea what that is...

    Hey Neohic, thanks! I drove down to your part of the woods to pick it up. Previous Owner was a cool guy, but wanted something a little more... "user friendly" for off-roading. Which I can completely understand, these things are tough on the body without power steer, brakes, etc when you're doing anything too serious. When I went out with my old 73, I was sore as can be the next day.
    Once I get this thing on the road again, I hope to meet up with other local enthusiasts!
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2020
  8. Apr 2, 2020
    Dphillip

    Dphillip Sponsor

    Omaha NE
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    302
    I like your TBI conversation, I did the same on my 4.3.
    I agree with 45es about the importance of a VSS, I’m using the one he recommends. I ran a short section of speedometer cable from the speedo into the engine compartment and connected the VSS there so it rests on the intake manifold. A longer section of speedo cable then runs from the VSS to the transfer case.
    Regarding the VSS you linked to, I used one of those on an old cruise control system I once had and it was problematic and not very reliable. The magnet that’s attached to the driveshaft was always falling off or the pickup would loose its signal.
    Good luck with your project, I’ll be following along.
     
    45es likes this.
  9. Apr 2, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    I didn't even see his link! I have been searching for options for the past 1/2 hour! Thanks for pointing that out.
    Thanks for the advice on the magnetic one, I will stay away from that.

    What transmission do you have? I was hoping to thread this into the cable right before it goes into the spedometer in the dash.
     
  10. Apr 2, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    I need to open your bin which I haven't done yet. I would have expected the stock engine to operate better than what you have described unless there has been some changes that you have not mentioned. The stock engine operating temperature should be 195* F unless a different thermostat has been installed. Based on the code, will have an effect as to when engine goes into closed loop. With Tunerpro, look in the list view and you will see the operating temperature that the EMC is seeing.

    I wouldn't use the vss you linked. The one I noted and being used by Dphillip connects at the speedometer cable connection on the transfer case or as Dphillip did under the hood. Mine is connected at the transfer case and wired to the ECM.

    I'll try to get your bin loaded soon so I have a better understanding. Do use the guys on GearHead-EFI . They are a smart and helpful group.
     
    Dphillip likes this.
  11. Apr 2, 2020
    scott milliner

    scott milliner Master Fabricator

    Seattle Wa.
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    2,077
    I used an aftermarket VSS sensor. I found I kept getting a VSS code. I then changed to a different PPM and it seems to work. 4000/8000 PPM, I still haven't found out what PPM I need.
     
  12. Apr 2, 2020
    Dphillip

    Dphillip Sponsor

    Omaha NE
    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    302
    I have a 700R4 that is controlled by the ECM and Dana 300 transfer case.
    It’s been so long since my build but if I recall there was some reason why I couldn’t attach the VSS to the back of the speedo. The VSS fitting was different from the speedo or there was a clearance issue. It may have been once the VSS was attached to the back of the speedo the cable could not be orientated through the hole in the firewall, I just can’t remember.
    I originally had the VSS attached to the transfer case speedo cable port but then moved it to the engine compartment to get it out of the elements.
     
  13. Apr 3, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Hey we are all busy! I appreciate it if you get some time. Here is a screenshot of the hottest I have gotten it yet. 157 degrees. Makes sense, I haven't really ran the Jeep long enough to get up to operating temps yet.
    Hoping to get an exhaust back on this weekend and do some real data-logging to get a better understanding of everything.
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    I am looking at the Dakota Digital Converter thing that will allow me to run a 8000PPR and convert it down to a 2PPR for the 7747 ECU.- I am concerned about the JTR 2PPR taking forever to get here. I was reading a post that someone waited 6 months to get his VSS since it was being custom made or something... o_O
    Reading the manual and a couple of reviews, seems simple enough. I just need to research and make sure the 8000PPR sensors will work with my cable/transfer-case/speedometer.
    Thanks for the input guys!
     
  14. Apr 3, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    I don't like internet hear say although, here I go. I called Stealth Conversions (AKA: JTR). Had to leave a message, waited all of 5 minutes and Greg called me back. Explained your needs and internet comments which annoyed him as years ago a problem had occurred but also years ago fixed. The 2PRS vss sensor is on the shelf and available. Call them @ 925-462-3619.

    I did load your data into Tunerpro and looked at your log. You are correct you did enter closed loop. Engine temp noted in your .bin agree, iac looks about right, etc. The o2 has me confused. In open loop according to the notes in the ADX file, you should have a straight line as seen in the log and should resemble a sinewave in closed loop which it doesn't. I believe that is what is causing the INT and BLM to stay at 128. I'm very much a novias so ask your questions at GearHead-EFI for better feedback.

    Could you post the data noted on the ecm label? I know the ecm is a 1227747 but what is the BCC code? That should be on the ecm label and better yet, on the memcal.
     
  15. Apr 3, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Noted on the JTR! Thanks!
    Where do you see the straight line vs sinewave? You must be in a graph function that I haven't figured out/discovered yet. Below is a photo of the ECM. I believe ASDU is the original BCC code, which on the 1227747 page on Gearhead: 1227747 ECM Information $42 says the following "ASDU 89 C-G-K-R-V Truck 5.7TBI 700r4 with 2.73 gears.bin " Makes sense, I pulled this from an old square body suburban. Completely red interior, probably considered fully loaded at the time!

    So I am using the ASDW for my current tune. Think there is a better option?
    [​IMG]
     
  16. Apr 4, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    Open Tunerpro. Click on acquisition. At the bottom of the dropdown you will see, show dash, show data list, show history tables and show monitor. Click on monitor and a window will appear. If you have a log loaded to Tunerpro, activate it and you will see a display of the log. Place the curser in the monitor window and right click. You will see a list of items with a check marks. Those items are being displayed. You can check or uncheck items based on what you want displayed. I use code mask $A1 for my engine tuning and although Tunerpro operates the same, my display is a bit different and my o2 is shown a bit differently than the $42. Consequently I misspoke. Your o2 is shown as a saw tooth and is functioning.

    Since I can't see what you are doing, I wanted to ask so I can have a better understanding of where you started. So, if I understand, you erased the original code and burned the new code? Or?
    That's a question for someone like dave w on GearHead.

    With the VSS installed, I would do another log. Post it over on GearHead and with comments based on your observations. Ask for input from others there.
     
    snoobly likes this.
  17. Apr 4, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Awesome, I appreciate the input Ed! Working on Welding new exhaust, bodywork, and getting a VSS ordered this weekend.
     
  18. Apr 17, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Little update on progress the past couple of weeks. Been a little slow as the wife told me I needed to spend last weekend fixing some things around the house.
    I am getting close to completing the exhaust. I got rid of the headers that went outside the frame and exited out the side right before the rear tires. It was too loud and my opinion was obnoxious a bit looking.
    I tried a couple of different aftermarket header options, but they both directly hit the frame, so I looked on FB market place and found some used stock exhaust manifolds for $20. ka-ching! :sneak:
    From the exhaust manifolds, the pipe is routing inside the frame and hopefully once I am done it will exit the back. The passenger side has been ... tricky ... trying to get the piping routed around/over the transfer case. It's a tight fit.
    It's been awhile since I have done much welding, so I have been having some fun with it! Try not to poke too much fun at the welds..:)

    I also have ordered the VSS setup and it's also almost installed and wired up.

    I decided with all the down time in the garage waiting for exhaust and VSS parts to ship in, that I might as well weld in new homemade floor pans and Rhinoline the interior. I put the first coat of Rhinoline on last night and will hopefully get the second coat on tonight. I used a heavy duty sealant (NP1) around all the welds for extra protection. That's the ugly brown smeared over all the seams. Hoping that pays off in the long run, even though it's not the most aesthetically pleasing.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    had some trouble getting the original manifold bolts out:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Sometimes I get a "helper":
    [​IMG]

    This is only the first coat, hoping to put the second coat on tonight when I get home
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Lastly, this 4 barrel Holley carb is for sale. It's a 6R 6910B, which from my research leads me to believe it is a 600CFM. Not 100% sure what it is worth, but I have it listed locally for $150. PM me if interested. It worked fine when I pulled it from the Jeep, probably needed some tuning, hence the reason I went EFI... IDK anything about carbs.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Apr 26, 2020
    snoobly

    snoobly New Member

    Arvada, CO
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Got VSS installed - I went the Dakota Digital route for future modification flexibility. The sensor is an 8K PPR and the Dakota Digital unit translates it to 2K PPM for the 7747. works pretty slick.
    I went ahead and purchased an Ostrich 2.0 for quicker/easier tuning. Still having difficulty... thinking the new O2 sensor I had purchased may be bad already. Gives me a constant lean condition even after tuning in more fuel.
    Got the ECU mounted up in it permanent location under the dash to protect it from the elements as best as possible. All the seats are remounted in the Jeep. I am pretty happy with how the Rhinoline turned out in the tub. Photo below!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Wires still need to be tucked away, but trying to get the dang thing tuned before I get things really tucked away permanently.
    [​IMG]
    ECU is mounted up behind the glove box using heavy duty velcro and unistrut to clamp it between the firewall and the unistrut fittings. It's pretty secure up there.
    Here is the link to my thread on Gearhead EFI: SBC 350 TBI Conversion Tuning Help in case anyone is interested in taking a look at the datalogs and shouting some input.
     
  20. Apr 26, 2020
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member 2020 Sponsor

    Sacramento Ca.
    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2016
    Messages:
    1,094
    $20 is a deal for manifolds (y). I did the same as you and ditched the headers and side exit exhaust for manifolds and dual pipes out the back. Since I did dual exhaust I didn't have to get over the T-case or cross anywhere. Nice work.
     
    snoobly likes this.

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