AHHHHH! I need ideas! HELP!

My youngest son is going to school to be a service tech.
He's not a "A" mechanic, but no "newbie" either.
They were looking for things to do at school, so I told him he could bring my Jeep in and do some work, (mistake #1?).
I replaced the points, but put the dwell at 28 degrees instead of 32,

(Oh! This is all on a '74 CJ5 232 six banger, 1 bbl carb, stock to the bone),
Set the timing up a bit.

All he had to do was replace the spark plugs, cap/wires, oil and lube the 50000 grease fittings.
I wanted him to :
1. check timing where it was NOW
2. Check Dwell, (I know he had no idea what dwell was- "find out, that's what your there for")
3 Set the dwell
4 Re-check the timing, I wanted to HIM to know how the dwell affects the timing, (if I remember 2 degrees of dwell = 1 degree of timing).
5 Reset the timing to factory
6 Find out how much mechanic advance I had going
7 Find out how much TOTAL advance I had
8 If the instructor could, toss it on the "scope" and show him the pattern of the ignition, (maybe pull a wire, ground out a wire, lean it down, richen it up, to show how it affected the coil voltage).
All cool stuff they'd more than likely NEVER see again, but cool to know.

Well the sheet hit the fan......................... (what else)
The instructor was busy getting ready for some certification they HAD to get before Oct.1, so he let them loose in the shop alone.
he replace everything, but now the jeep runs like a piece of sheet. He limped it home and parked it.
I got home and it was dark, so I couldn't do much, and worse, I'm stuck at work today til???
At first I thought it sounded like a wire was crossed, (but them again not really) but no, firing order correct.
I reset the dwell, checked the EGR to make sure it wasn't sticking, but it wasn't a EGR or carb problem.
It's surging at idle, sounds like it's missing out the tail pipe, sputters real bad off idle. When I pull spark plug wires, only 1 cyl REALLY drops the RPM the otheres drop slightly.

Is there a different dist cap for a 258 as a 232?
is it possible he has the cap on 180 degrees WRONG?
It sounds like it's a ignition problem, but till I get home,it's eating on me brain.

Course he left all the old parts at school as well as the 3 service manuals I gave him, so I'm going on a burnt out brian for specs!

Ideals?? so I can find parts QUICK when I get outta here today.
Joe
Ahhhh! The cost of higher learning!
I WAS thinking about letting him replace the clutch, but........

 

No - they are the same.

No - the cap only goes on in one way.

First check the spark - you should have a blue-white spark that will jump a 1/4" gap.

If you have an intermittent miss on most cylinders, that would point more to insufficient spark, timing way off, or fuel trouble. You did remove and plug the vacuum advance to set the timing? First set the dwell, then set the timing at the speed spec'd by the manual.

 

Sounds like the 21st century mechanics need to stick to computer diagnostics and trouble codes.

 

Could be a coil issue.
I did replace it with a "Higher Output" coil from Pep boys a while back. It had been working well, but they could have left the key on.......
I don't think it's a fuel issue, but, weirder things have been know to happen. I'm on 3/4 of a tank had been working flawless, but did add a bottle of dry gas.....
The dist. can only turn soo far and it hits the block, so it can't be too far advanced. It looks more or less where I had placed it the day before.
I did plug the advance, make sure the idle was good to keep the mechanical advance off and set the timing. (I wanted to make sure the vac. advance worked before I set it up there.

This is what I'm trying ot show these kids.
it's EASY tro plug a box into a plug and it'll tell you what's wrong, I (as well as the instructor I HOPE) shoulkd be trying to teach them to THINK the problem out.

I was really hoping it was just a wrong part but it can't be that easy.
I drop in the old coil and check the cap to make sure it's not cracked, etc.
I think I'll call Napa and see if they have a replacement one on the shelf.
It just sucks I'm TRAPPED here, (It sucks being the boss, I gotta be an adult all day!), and the sick jeep is there.
Joe
the things I do for a grim!R)

 

Ok, take a deep breath....... exhale.....one more...exhale.

Now, remember why you let(or told) him to take it to school.... to learn.

Have him take it back and get the instructors help to make it right! Just like it would be if you are paying for it to be done at a shop. I'm assuming that it is a trade school and most of them are set up to run just like a job.

If this is your dd then it makes it a little more urgent.

Maybe both of you will learn something

I have a 16 year old and really try to teach him these things also. I have learned (try) to have alot of patience, at times not easy.

 

Normally I would. But the way it's running, I'm afraid it won't make the few miles back to school,then I'll have a dead Jeep on the side of the road! (It's like that song with the dead frogs, only it's dead jeeps)!R)
Me thinks the best thing is find out what's wrong, fix it, THEN put it back so he can figure it out.
Things have changed from when I got my degree at that school! ANY vehicle would have to be checked out by the instructor before it rolled out.
I'd bet "Dollars to doughnuts" the J.O.B. went south and they paniced and shipped it out.
I'm on a few committees from the auto department, I'll have to bring this up, (the instructor is new, so I gotta take it easy on him. He was the tech instructor from Chrysler since the 80's , so he knows his stuff and the school is damn lucky to have him IMOP)
I've been a Chrysler Tech since the 70's, so there isn't much I can learn from this "problem". (This was "State of the Art" technology when back then), it's just annouying I'm here and it's there, most of the parts places will be closed by the time I head home, and tomorrow I'm back here.
Joe
If things were different, they'd be different things to be different about!:?

 

he didn't pull dist shaft out did he than put it back in backwards ?


I let my son take one of my cars to school to paint looked great ,2 weeks later wife took it to car wash every stinking bit of paint washed off try to save a few bucks well it cost me $1500. to have it repainted correctly
hey there kids they mean well but never trust them to work on the cars lol ,you just gotta love them

 

Vacuum leaks? Perhaps during the operation at school a vacuum line got knocked off or broken.
I'd loosen the distributor and move the timing around a bit to see if the running improves. You can always go back later and set with a light, but if you have a 'feel' you can get pretty close.
You checked firing order at the cap, but how about whether #1 is in the right position? Take the engine to #1 TDC, and see which cap terminal the rotor is pointing at. Some caps label one terminal "#1" incorrectly, and perhaps your son used that as reference instead of the position on the old cap.
Geoff

 

It was a weird problem. Could be a lot of things but didn't have ALL the systems!
A vac leak makes the enigne rock back and forth. a good way is pull a manifold plug off and see if the rpm increases, or cover the carb intake and see if it increases rpm.
I was sure it wasn't a fuel problem, I zipped the mixture in and out as I was thinking of what it was doing. The sound of the miss comming out the pipe and the way it was sputtering I was covinced it was a "flame starter" issue
If it was a computer controled engine, I'd say the computer was going bonkers, you know all kinda of weird issues, but a simple point system, strange things?
I went home pull a wire and check the spark. Kinda weak.
"Ahhh the sheet super coil went!!!???
Swapped out to the stocker, same thing.
hmmmmmm what esle controls the spark. Got 12 volts to coil, there is only one other thing that can steal voltage........
Pulled the cap and looked at that bad boy condensor.
Now, I haven't had a bad condenser in ?????40 years, but they do go and have heard about them going, it's always been a "No start" deal, or a instant "die on the road" deal (I new a guy who made a condenser out of a foil from smokes @ a wire. He showed us that, and we tried it. it did work!:tea
So, I dropped in the old condenser and WHAM!
THAT WAS IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I dunno what made it go, it wasn't damamged in any way.
On the older scopes I used they had a meter and some leads that could test them. it must send voltage to it and see what it couod store??
I tryed a ohm meter on it and it wasn't grounded Had some ristense but I dunno the spec.
I have a friend who's a electrician and he has a tester that MAY be able to check it. dunno if it was a condenser tester for the big electrical motor. I've seen it in his van, I dunno if it'll go that small. But It'll be intresting.
I remember in the 70's you ALWAYS carried a spare set of points/condenser and coil in your tool box in the trunk,as well as fuses!
I'm gonna give it to the boy and let him take it to school and have a show and tell. Maybe reinstall it on the jeep and let them see how it affected it.

It was a weird problem I just couldn't put my finger on.
I'm not the kinda guy who goes into something like this and starts swapping out parts til I hit it. I like to work the problem and find out why
Joe
An old saying when I was a "wet behind the ears MECHANIC"..
"The guy who knows how will always have a J.O.B., the guy who knows WHY will always be his boss".

 

Glad you figured it out....now you can sleep again !

 

Glad you figured it out!

So was the faulty condenser a new or recently replaced one? I've replaced a lot of points and condensers over the years in old Jeeps, Scouts, forklifts, tractors, and other construction equipment, and my observation is that the only modern replacement points and condensers you can buy are very poor quality from Mexico or China. I've rarely seen modern replacement condensers last more than a couple of years where the original equipment lasted for 25+ years.

Test a condenser with a meter that can measure capacitance. Both the Fluke and Craftsman DVOM's in my toolbox have this feature. Typical good reading is generally somewhere around 0.2 - 0.3 microfarad.

While I'm pretty 'old shool' in my philosophy regarding machinery, I greatly favor transistorized electronic ignition, especially because of the parts quality and reliability issue stated above. For your 232, install a Pertronix kit to keep it looking stock, or convert it to a Ford Duraspark (drop in replacement parts from late 70's Jeep 258 or HEI (aftermarket) setup, then forget about it and enjoy not fiddling with points and condensers anymore. My personal setup on my Ford 302 powered CJ5 is an early 80's Ford Duraspark distributor (uses conventional pickup coil), triggering an externally mounted GM HEI 4-pin module, which fires a modern Ford e-core type coil. This is a popular setup for early Bronco guys too. Runs flawless.