1971 Commando- 225 Dauntless Timing Chain

[Brubes2]

Hey Everyone, I recently purchased a 1971 Commando and am located in Birmingham, AL. It is in "decent" condition and had some fresh paint put on it about a year before I bought it. It's a great looking ride. Unfortunately, it is not running great. I'm able to drive it around the neighborhood, but it definitely needs some carb work. It had a weber 38dges put on it also about a year before I bought it, and I believe the accelerator pump has gone bad.

I bought this knowing it would be a project, and expected to do suspension work and carb work myself. I'm not very experienced with cars. Most I've done on a vehicle is replace alternators and install leveling kits, but I am looking and hoping to learn.

I had a friend perform an inspection on the jeep after I purchased it. One thing that wasn't "expected" that we learned is it likely needs a timing chain replacement. When inspecting the balancer moved 8 degrees before the distributor rotor moves. I've watched multiple youtube videos and read multiple write ups on the replacement. I believe I am in over my head on this, and am concerned I could really screw something up if I attempt. Also concerned I wouldn't know what to look for when I get in there as someone more experienced would.

My question: What should I "expect" to spend to replace the timing chain and timing chain cover? I know it's a project that can lead to multiple other diagnoses, but looking to ballpark. Also, is this something you'd let any mechanic do, or should it go to someone who specializes in classic cars?

I've got a long list of things that need to be done to the jeep, I'm just trying to budget and prioritize. Sorry for the lengthy post, thought a bit of background might be helpful as I need all the help I can get!

 

[dnb71R2]

Save yourself ALLOT of trouble & hassle:

Buick Olds Jeep 225 CID Replacement Engine

If the engine needs a timing chain, it probably needs MANY other parts also.
It may seem expensive, but once you consider all the quality parts you need and your time, these are a bargain!

I did this almost 10 years ago and would do it again in heartbeat!

 

[Brubes2]

Save yourself ALLOT of trouble & hassle:

Buick Olds Jeep 225 CID Replacement Engine

It may seem expensive, but once you consider all the quality parts you need and your time, these are a bargain!

I did this almost 10 years ago and would do it again in heartbeat!

Save yourself ALLOT of trouble & hassle:

Buick Olds Jeep 225 CID Replacement Engine

It may seem expensive, but once you consider all the quality parts you need and your time, these are a bargain!

I did this almost 10 years ago and would do it again in heartbeat!

I appreciate the response. I’ve been reading on engine swaps and was curious how recommended they would be. Love the idea of keeping everything factory, but do love the idea of reliability more. Did you pair it with the factory transmission? And I assume install , even if a direct bolt on, is still an expensive cost as well

 

[timgr]

Welcome from Boston.

This poster is recommending a factory-type replacement engine, not a swap.
This is a "remanufactured" engine, a complete replacement.
The best choice for you will be the proven combination supplied by the factory.
If you can't do a timing chain, you aren't up to swapping another type of engine.
Suggest you stick with the factory 225.

Which transmission does your Jeepster Commando have now?

Regarding your original question, changing the timing chain should be a straightforward job.
Access is easy, and the parts are available.
Melling makes a kit for your engine with both gears and the chain.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=7305776&cc=1497277&pt=5756&jsn=488
Inexpensive.
You'll also need gaskets.
I would also replace the water pump, hoses and belts as needed.

If you can't do this yourself, you need to look for someone who is willing to work on an old car.
Maybe ask for recommendations from your local Jeep club or car clubs.
Old cars have special problems, like broken bolts and parts availability.
Shops run on flat rate; they have a book that says the number of hours needed for the job, then they apply their rate to that.

It's hard to own an old car like this if you can't do the work yourself.
This is not a hard job if everything goes well and no great surprises - lots of access, easy to take apart and put back.

 

[Brubes2]

I appreciate the explanation and the info!
Currently has the automatic TH400. It seems to shift fine. The car does “jump” when you put it into reverse and drive, but haven’t noticed any issues while driving.

I thought the timing chain looked straight forward as well. The hardest part seemed to be the actually timing itself. I mentioned doing it myself to a friend and they almost talked me out of it saying how I could ruin the engine, they also said it would cost a few thousand dollars to have a local shop do it.

I bought the car with every intention of doing the work myself (despite my lack of experience). Just had some folks worry me I could be getting in over my head on the timing chain.

 

[timgr]

The automatic in these Jeepsters is certainly strong enough for a power upgrade.
If you consider it, make sure you have the Dana 44 rear axle and not the Dana 30.
I believe a '71 will be the 44 for all such vehicles.

A swap would change to a different engine from original, not a refurbished original engine.
You can swap in a Buick 300-340-350 V8 rather easily, but this is a 50 yo car, and finding a compatible Buick V8 today may be a challenge.
Note this is easy compared to other swaps, maybe not so easy for someone with little wrenching experience.
This was a great swap in the '70s ... maybe not today.

If you want to go ahead with the timing chain, it would be an excellent learning experience.
You will need to remove the timing cover.
Suggest you search older posts about broken bolts when removing the water pump and/or timing cover.
I think that could be your biggest obstacle.
Lining up the timing is easy if you can follow directions.

The only way to gain experience is to do the work yourself.
You need some confidence in yourself.
You don't have to be Einstein but you need to read and understand the procedure.
Do you have the factory manual (the FSM or TSM)?

 

[Brubes2]

I’d definitely like to avoid any engine swapping/replacing if possible, but understand I can reach a point where that’s the best solution.

You’ve convinced me to take on the chain swap. I initially thought I could do it, but let someone talk me out of it. Would you go ahead and replace the chain cover as well?

I also need a new radiator, and was planning on changing the alternator to the one wire. Seems like this is the time to do it!

I do not have a factory manual.

 

[timgr]

The timing cover does not wear out like the chain.
Not a moving part.
You might replace it if it were damaged.

The water pump is a very common service part - I would just replace it routinely.
The belts and hoses; maybe, based on your inspection of them.
Generally I replace all the belts and hoses on a new-old car, and keep the take-offs for spares.
The heater hoses are a particular liability.

You need the manual.
The factory manual for the CJ is widely available, but maybe not the Jeepster.
Here's the Commando manual at Faxon:
https://www.faxonautoliterature.com/1967-1971-Jeepster-Commando-Repair-Shop-Manual-Reprint
May as well get this one ... not too expensive.
RockAuto might have it on digital media.
Get the factory book, not a Haynes or Chitons.

Note this is written for the dealership mechanics and service managers - it won't teach you how to work on cars.
Pretty much up to you to seek other materials if you need help with basic stuff.
Lots of good books and videos out there.
You could watch videos about changing the water pump or timing chain on pretty much any old V8 RWD car ...
the technology will be the same and have most of the general techniques in common.
Then refer to the FSM for specifics about your Jeepster.
You could ask here too.

 

[Brubes2]

Thanks! Just ordered the manual as well as the timing chain from rock auto. Went ahead and ordered replacement water pump as well as a few other items.

Really appreciate you taking the time to help point me in the right direction. Looking forward to taking this project on!

 

[Fireball]

The timing cover does not wear out like the chain.
Not a moving part.

This isn't 100% true. Tthe oil pump housing portion of the front cover can get worn out.

Things to consider changing the timing chain:

• Make sure you have the engine at TDC when you disassemble the front of it.
• You might need a puller to get the front damper off
• It's not uncommon for the bolts for the water pump and front cover to seize into the aluminum front cover housing. Use heat from a propane torch (or something hotter) and some sort of penetrating oil if they are stuck. Slowly work the bolts back and forth without applying too much torque until they break loose. Even with all that, you may still break a bolt and need to drill it out.
• You might as well change the water pump and front seal while you have everything apart.
• You might want to pull the oil pan and replace the entire gasket instead of patching in new pieces under the front under the timing cover. It probably needs it anyway.
• The 225 also has a pair of timing guides you need to replace along with the chain: https://stores.partsdude4x4.net/timing-chain-dampener-225-v6/ https://stores.partsdude4x4.net/timing-chain-dampener-with-spring-225-v6/

 

[timgr]

...

• Make sure you have the engine at TDC when you disassemble the front of it. ...

Good to hear from someone that's worked on the 225s.
I would add - the crank comes around to the timing marks twice for every rotation of the camshaft.
You need the cam and the crank synchronized at #1 TDC before you take the crank pulley off.
Stop the crank at #1 TDC, with #1 on the compression stroke, not the exhaust stroke.
This is where the distributor rotor is pointing at the #1 spark plug wire and the timing marks are lined up with zero degrees advance.
This puts the marks on the timing gears close together.
If you are off by one rotation, the camshaft mark will be at the top of the gear, 180 degrees from the crank gear mark.
I expect the TSM will tell you to line up with #1 TDC.

Could edit to be less wordy, but that's the gist.

 

[Brubes2]

Thanks for the info Fireball. I did order the oil pump rebuild kit, new water pump, seal set, and the timing guides when I placed my order. I appreciate the tip on getting those water pump and cover bolts out with as minimal damage as possible. The engine bay is pretty dirty with some rust built up so I expect them to put up a fight.

The timing and TDC portion of the job was what I was finding more intimidating than just the replacing itself. Just got the email my service manual shipped so I'm sure between that, youtube, and this website I can figure it out.

Is there any other upgrades/ maintenance items that this would be a good time to perform? I'm trying to find a replacement radiator with built in transmission cooler to put back in.

One other thing, we did check engine compression and had the following readings: 1=135, 2=150, 3=150, 4=125, 5=150, 6=165.

 

[dnb71R2]

Your compression values are OK (not ideal but should get you by). Generally, the highest and lowest reading should not differ by more than 10-15%.
Mine were worse and that's why I opted for a reman engine.

 

[Brubes2]

Started the project this afternoon. Got the radiator off (will definitely need a new one now). My radiator had the built in transmission cooler lines, and when I was trying to detach them from the radiator I ended up breaking them from twisting them with the nut. Was also my first time draining a radiator and I got coolant all over my garage. I mean it was a fountain from the bottom of it. I also removed the belts and fan. Distributor was stuck, so I sprayed something on it to hopefully help it release and will try again tomorrow.

here’s what I thought was odd. When trying to find TDC, I read to put a small ball made from paper towel in the spark plug hole, and then to turn the crank shaft and when you hit TDC the paper towel would shoot out from the compression. This never happened for me. I then left everything as is, and bumped the ignition a few times to turn it, and the paper towel shot out. When it shot out, the timing mark was in line with 0. I then checked where the distributor rotor was and it was also in line with the 1wire. Did this a few more times and most times the mark was at zero.

after I got the fan off and had more room to work, I was able to have thumb over the hole while turning the crank and watch rotor. I could feel the slightest air flow as I approached TDC, but there was never a massive push on my thumb as many people describe it.

apologize for the lengthy write up, just feeling a little in over my head and that I might have done more harm than good today.

 

[sterlclan]

you are doing fine...crap happens, and you are likely the first person in there for many years. slow and steady will win in the end keep it up.

 

[jeepdaddy2000]

You are waaaaayyyyy overthinking this.
Timing marks aren't even an issue. You will be replacing the chain and sprockets. By aligning the "dots" on the sprockets, you will align the crank to 0 on the compression stroke. It's automatic.
On a side note, checking the chain slop on a Buick V6 by rotating the crank isn't actually accurate. The chain is sloppy stock and uses a spring loaded buffer to take that up.
Basically:
Remove the timing cover.
Rotate the crank till the sprocket marks align.
R&R the sprockets and chain.
Recheck the marks.
Replace the cover.
Install the distributor with the rotor under the tower marked #1. This is critical with the odd fire motor or it won't run correctly.
set the static timing.
Recheck to insure the rotor is under the correct tower.
Tighten the distributor.
You are in business..............................

 

[Brubes2]

Appreciate the encouragement and info! Alright new chain is on and it is MUCH tighter than old. Minimal play even without the damper on. Any tricks to getting the damper spring back on? I’ve replaced the chain and sprockets and have the damper and bolt in, but trying to get to the spring back in place on the shoulder of the damper bolt is proving to be impossible for me. I just tried for twenty minutes and feel like I’m missing something obvious

edited to add before and after photo of new chain (still don’t have damper on)

 

[Fireball]

Appreciate the encouragement and info! Alright new chain is on and it is MUCH tighter than old. Minimal play even without the damper on. Any tricks to getting the damper spring back on? I’ve replaced the chain and sprockets and have the damper and bolt in, but trying to get to the spring back in place on the shoulder of the damper bolt is proving to be impossible for me. I just tried for twenty minutes and feel like I’m missing something obvious

edited to add before and after photo of new chain (still don’t have damper on)

I don't recall for sure, but I'm pretty sure I installed the damper first and then pried it out of the way while installing the chain when I did my old '69.

 

[Brubes2]

That makes sense. Will take the chain back off and give that a shot. Thanks!

 

[Brubes2]

You were correct… needed to put spring on before the chain (the manual points that out if I had paid attention).

I’m in process of putting everything back together now. I’m trying to install camshaft retaining bolt back on to spec torque, but as soon as I begin applying pressure it spins. I tried wedging a screwdriver but that couldn’t work. Have a feeling this is another simple fix (I did read the manual this time) that I’m missing.