- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
Dude. I'll say it .... You're never going to drive this Jeep if it takes a month for a spring plate!
The B3 3b Attempt
- Thread starter wheelie
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
I know. I know. Hard to get garage time with everything else that needs doing. And I am obviously not pushing myself. Maybe I should but it's a hobby. I don't want to take the fun out of it.
Some progress though, as follows, and some questions to go with it. Suggestions, advice and knowledge are welcome.
I bolted up the spring plate yesterday and while I could still see the numbers on the torque wrench
beer....
.... and then I installed the front hubs and rotors on the the 30. I'll trim the u bolts later. Called it quits after that for the night. This morning, I did a practice run on a junk knuckle with the TRE reamer. I started doing it manually but wasn't liking the result. But I was a bit concerned about over doing it with a drill. I put the the reamer in the original taper on the 30, up from the bottom, and marked the depth with a piece of tape and made a few turns by hand and was still unhappy with it so I chucked it up in the drill and went at it. Easy peasy. All concerns were unfounded. I might have to go just a bit deeper ( a thread or two) but no worries. I did not do the hole for the rod from the steering box yet. Then I stuck the original tie rod in place for the time being.
Threw the roller tires on it and set it down on the floor. The tires are mismatched and the right front is about 3/4 shorter than the other three. But some quick measuring left me pretty happy with a few exceptions. 1) It seems to have about 1/2 - 3/4 rake to it which I don't like. And this is with no weight on it yet. 2) The right side steering knuckle seems kinda close to the tire. Maybe it's not and it'll be fine???? This is why just tack everything. Changes may have to happen. Learning.
And then there's this. The driver side tire is way out at the top. About 7/8" out from the bottom. I put there spindle shim back in the way it came out. I guess I need to go back in there and rotate to fix this??? I am not familiar with the 30. The passenger side tire is out maybe 1/4" at the top. Good???
So, at this point I turned my attention back to the pilot bushing. Did some measuring to see what I have to do to the new one from Novak. It arrived the other day. 2 of them actually. It came packed in oil. It is not magnetic like the one I ruined and the one that I pulled from crank originally. I assume this one is all bronze??? It wouldn't be brass would it? Too soft.
So lend me your knowledge on this stuff. I'm all ears.
Some progress though, as follows, and some questions to go with it. Suggestions, advice and knowledge are welcome.
I bolted up the spring plate yesterday and while I could still see the numbers on the torque wrench
.... and then I installed the front hubs and rotors on the the 30. I'll trim the u bolts later. Called it quits after that for the night. This morning, I did a practice run on a junk knuckle with the TRE reamer. I started doing it manually but wasn't liking the result. But I was a bit concerned about over doing it with a drill. I put the the reamer in the original taper on the 30, up from the bottom, and marked the depth with a piece of tape and made a few turns by hand and was still unhappy with it so I chucked it up in the drill and went at it. Easy peasy. All concerns were unfounded. I might have to go just a bit deeper ( a thread or two) but no worries. I did not do the hole for the rod from the steering box yet. Then I stuck the original tie rod in place for the time being.
Threw the roller tires on it and set it down on the floor. The tires are mismatched and the right front is about 3/4 shorter than the other three. But some quick measuring left me pretty happy with a few exceptions. 1) It seems to have about 1/2 - 3/4 rake to it which I don't like. And this is with no weight on it yet. 2) The right side steering knuckle seems kinda close to the tire. Maybe it's not and it'll be fine???? This is why just tack everything. Changes may have to happen. Learning.
And then there's this. The driver side tire is way out at the top. About 7/8" out from the bottom. I put there spindle shim back in the way it came out. I guess I need to go back in there and rotate to fix this??? I am not familiar with the 30. The passenger side tire is out maybe 1/4" at the top. Good???
So, at this point I turned my attention back to the pilot bushing. Did some measuring to see what I have to do to the new one from Novak. It arrived the other day. 2 of them actually. It came packed in oil. It is not magnetic like the one I ruined and the one that I pulled from crank originally. I assume this one is all bronze??? It wouldn't be brass would it? Too soft.
So lend me your knowledge on this stuff. I'm all ears.
I know. I know. Hard to get garage time with everything else that needs doing. And I am obviously not pushing myself. Maybe I should but it's a hobby. I don't want to take the fun out of it.
Some progress though, as follows, and some questions to go with it. Suggestions, advice and knowledge are welcome.
I bolted up the spring plate yesterday and while I could still see the numbers on the torque wrench
.... and then I installed the front hubs and rotors on the the 30. I'll trim the u bolts later. Called it quits after that for the night. This morning, I did a practice run on a junk knuckle with the TRE reamer. I started doing it manually but wasn't liking the result. But I was a bit concerned about over doing it with a drill. I put the the reamer in the original taper on the 30, up from the bottom, and marked the depth with a piece of tape and made a few turns by hand and was still unhappy with it so I chucked it up in the drill and went at it. Easy peasy. All concerns were unfounded. I might have to go just a bit deeper ( a thread or two) but no worries. I did not do the hole for the rod from the steering box yet. Then I stuck the original tie rod in place for the time being.
Threw the roller tires on it and set it down on the floor. The tires are mismatched and the right front is about 3/4 shorter than the other three. But some quick measuring left me pretty happy with a few exceptions. 1) It seems to have about 1/2 - 3/4 rake to it which I don't like. And this is with no weight on it yet. 2) The right side steering knuckle seems kinda close to the tire. Maybe it's not and it'll be fine???? This is why just tack everything. Changes may have to happen. Learning.
And then there's this. The driver side tire is way out at the top. About 7/8" out from the bottom. I put there spindle shim back in the way it came out. I guess I need to go back in there and rotate to fix this??? I am not familiar with the 30. The passenger side tire is out maybe 1/4" at the top. Good???
So, at this point I turned my attention back to the pilot bushing. Did some measuring to see what I have to do to the new one from Novak. It arrived the other day. 2 of them actually. It came packed in oil. It is not magnetic like the one I ruined and the one that I pulled from crank originally. I assume this one is all bronze??? It wouldn't be brass would it? Too soft.
So lend me your knowledge on this stuff. I'm all ears.
The pilot bushing should be oilite bronze. This material should have little specs of porosity in it. Oil is supposed to absorb into the metal for lubricating. Thats why it comes packed in oil.
As far as your D30 with too much positive camber, do you have any tapered shims that fit between the knuckle and spindle? If so, you need to install it with the thinnest side pointing up. I don’t know how many different “thicknesses” there are, or if they can be stacked.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2007
8degree is the most I can find. I ordered a couple sets today.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
A little measuring makes me feel like the proud pilot bushing is a non issue. I'll know soon. I tapped it in without modification to where it stopped. 3/16 proud to it's bore in the crankshaft.
Had to order some serrated (?) lock washers for the flywheel (and new bolts for the tranny to bell housing). Arrived in a few days from McMaster as no local hardware store had the washers in the right diameter.
Torqued to 60 lb/ft as per FSM.
The 350 uses an 11" clutch vs the 225s 10.5" disc. Of course the clutch cover ( pressure plate in my world) is bigger with a larger corresponding bolt pattern in the flywheel.
I had used Novaks custom T18 front bearing retainer which is machined to use the GM throwout bearing. I had to do some head scratching and back tracking and phone a friend to remember what I did here when I rebuilt this transmission a LONG time ago. Time sure flies. But I got to the bottom of it and know what's up again. So....throw out bearing.....
...... I didn't like the throw out bearing that came in the clutch kit but found a supposedly slight used one in a clutch kit I bought from someone here years ago. Supposedly 300 miles on it. Ehhhh. A little unsure about that one. Then I looked in a new clutch kit I also got from a member here long ago and decided to use that unused throw out bearing instead of chancing having to yank out the weighty T18 too soon because of a noisy used bearing my cheap arse used. Found a clutch fork in a short 225 bell housing I had on the shelf. And in the drawer of drivetrain tools I found an old ( but plastic) Ford FE 360 clutch alignment tool from way back when I had my old '72 F100......right after high school. Hoping to have the T18 mated to the 350 soon if I don't have to pivot my focus in some other direction. I've got 72 irons in the fire.
Had to order some serrated (?) lock washers for the flywheel (and new bolts for the tranny to bell housing). Arrived in a few days from McMaster as no local hardware store had the washers in the right diameter.
Torqued to 60 lb/ft as per FSM.
The 350 uses an 11" clutch vs the 225s 10.5" disc. Of course the clutch cover ( pressure plate in my world) is bigger with a larger corresponding bolt pattern in the flywheel.
I had used Novaks custom T18 front bearing retainer which is machined to use the GM throwout bearing. I had to do some head scratching and back tracking and phone a friend to remember what I did here when I rebuilt this transmission a LONG time ago. Time sure flies. But I got to the bottom of it and know what's up again. So....throw out bearing.....
...... I didn't like the throw out bearing that came in the clutch kit but found a supposedly slight used one in a clutch kit I bought from someone here years ago. Supposedly 300 miles on it. Ehhhh. A little unsure about that one. Then I looked in a new clutch kit I also got from a member here long ago and decided to use that unused throw out bearing instead of chancing having to yank out the weighty T18 too soon because of a noisy used bearing my cheap arse used. Found a clutch fork in a short 225 bell housing I had on the shelf. And in the drawer of drivetrain tools I found an old ( but plastic) Ford FE 360 clutch alignment tool from way back when I had my old '72 F100......right after high school. Hoping to have the T18 mated to the 350 soon if I don't have to pivot my focus in some other direction. I've got 72 irons in the fire.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
So, with the clutch components installed and the bell housing attached, the throw out bearing is resting lightly against the pressure plate diaphragm and the back side is flush with the inside of bell. The front bearing retainer on the T18 will extend about 1/4" beyond the inner surface of the bell before it necks down to the smaller diameter for the throw out bearing. Uh-oh. So, I got the T-O bearing that came with the clutch kit I'm using out of the box and compared it with the 225 bearing. The 225 bearing is taller by about.....1/4". I guess I may have to use the one that came with the kit. I'll swap them out tomorrow and see what happens. I may still end up with no clearance/free play on the bearing. Don't know what I'll then. Wishing I'd have grabbed the bell off the donor truck when I got the engine.
It's been a long time since I did any clutch work and even at that, I've only done a few and no mix and match between brands.
I was not going to use the supplied throw out bearing because it is a plastic sleeve where it rides on the front bearing retainer. I ain't much for plastic but have been told to not be concerned about it.
It's been a long time since I did any clutch work and even at that, I've only done a few and no mix and match between brands.
I was not going to use the supplied throw out bearing because it is a plastic sleeve where it rides on the front bearing retainer. I ain't much for plastic but have been told to not be concerned about it.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
My to is plastic. Like 6 years and chugging along.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
I don't know if this helps, but here's the clutch/throwout bearing heights that were in my '71 with the Buick 350. These are with the pressure plate resting on the table and the throwout bearing resting on that.
The old parts in it when I took it apart:
The new Luk Dauntless V6 replacement parts:
Both worked fine within the clutch fork cutout in the bellhousing, but the Luk parts required me to make an extension for the clutch cable to get it adjusted.
Sadly, I didn't measure the individual lengths of the components.
The old parts in it when I took it apart:
The new Luk Dauntless V6 replacement parts:
Both worked fine within the clutch fork cutout in the bellhousing, but the Luk parts required me to make an extension for the clutch cable to get it adjusted.
Sadly, I didn't measure the individual lengths of the components.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
I'm wondering if I may have to use a 225 flywheel and clutch kit. I'll play around with what I have and compare the measurements you show to what I have now with the 350 flywheel and clutch parts.
Are these flywheels neutral balanced or balanced to the engine?
Are these flywheels neutral balanced or balanced to the engine?
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- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
Buick 350s are externally balanced. That damper and flywheel need to have offset weights to balance the engine.
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2008
Don't reinvent the wheel...
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
I really don't know what my options are outside of that. The pics below will show what I have to work with. For starters, comparing the 225 flywheel to the 350 flywheel, the 350 flywheel is flat where the 225 flywheel is recessed almost 1/4" for the pressure plate. That equates to 1/4" less room for the throw out. I don't think I can just use a 225 flywheel if they are balanced to the engine right?
The following pictures are measured with the shorter throw out bearing (as Fireball did, PP on a flat surface).
Using the PP from the 350 clutch kit. 3 and 15/16.
Using a new 225 PP. 3 and 3/8
The 225 PP vs the 350 PP.
In terms of the height, the 225 PP and short bearing seems like the winning combination. Unfortunately, the smaller 225 PP ( 10.5" clutch disc) does not bolt to the 350 flywheel leaving me with having the 350 flywheel drilled for the 225 PP.
The 225 flywheel, being recessed another 1/4 would be even better and give more room but I understand that I can't use it because of the balancing. So what do you do? I don't think I'm trying to reinvent anything. Maybe I'm not understanding something. As it stands now, using the 350 kit with the taller bearing will leave the bearing with like 0 free play with its' front side on the PP fingers and its' back side up against the back end of its' travel on the bearing retainer. The short bearing will gain me just 1/4" of free travel and that doesn't seem right to me.
If I could find another PP that is the same height as the 225 but for the 11" clutch maybe I'd be okay.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
I really don't know what my options are outside of that. The pics below will show what I have to work with. For starters, comparing the 225 flywheel to the 350 flywheel, the 350 flywheel is flat where the 225 flywheel is recessed almost 1/4" for the pressure plate. That equates to 1/4" less room for the throw out. I don't think I can just use a 225 flywheel if they are balanced to the engine right?
The following pictures are measured with the shorter throw out bearing (as Fireball did, PP on a flat surface).
Using the PP from the 350 clutch kit. 3 and 15/16.
Using a new 225 PP. 3 and 3/8
The 225 PP vs the 350 PP.
In terms of the height, the 225 PP and short bearing seems like the winning combination. Unfortunately, the smaller 225 PP ( 10.5" clutch disc) does not bolt to the 350 flywheel leaving me with having the 350 flywheel drilled for the 225 PP.
The 225 flywheel, being recessed another 1/4 would be even better and give more room but I understand that I can't use it because of the balancing. So what do you do? I don't think I'm trying to reinvent anything. Maybe I'm not understanding something. As it stands now, using the 350 kit with the taller bearing will leave the bearing with like 0 free play with its' front side on the PP fingers and its' back side up against the back end of its' travel on the bearing retainer. The short bearing will gain me just 1/4" of free travel and that doesn't seem right to me.
If I could find another PP that is the same height as the 225 but for the 11" clutch maybe I'd be okay.
Interesting. The flywheel that was on the 350 when I got the Jeep fits a 10.5" V6 clutch. The pressure plate in the Jeep is a Valeo AMC-30. I don't have a number for the throwout bearing.
I'm pretty sure it's the flywheel from the 1970 Buick GS the engine came out of. Summit is listing a 1970 Buick GS 350 flywheel and it indicates a 10.5" clutch: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/luk-lfw131/make/buick/model/gs/year/1970
That might solve your problems for $105.00.
I'm guessing the 11" clutch flywheel is because your engine came from a truck.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
Also, I'm not sure the V6 flywheel puts the clutch mounting surface further forward. I think it's more a case of it having a ring that protrudes backwards. It's probably one of the ways Kaiser added more weight ot it.
You should measure from the flywheel mounting surface to the clutch mounting surface to see if it's any different.
You should measure from the flywheel mounting surface to the clutch mounting surface to see if it's any different.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
I did measure the flywheel thicknesses in a way. I just measured from the engine side of the ring gear to the rear most edge of the edge of the flywheel. That means the clutch/PP mounting surface on the 350 and the "raised edge" of the 225. Same dimension. Not sure if it is truly a meaningful measurement.
If I were to buy a flywheel, would it not have to be balanced to the rotating mass? That seems like a problem if so. If it's bolt it on and go, I like it.
I agree the 11" clutch is likely truck related though I did find a Buick car clutch that was listed at 11. Might have been GS 455 ( big block) but I don't recall.
If I were to buy a flywheel, would it not have to be balanced to the rotating mass? That seems like a problem if so. If it's bolt it on and go, I like it.
I agree the 11" clutch is likely truck related though I did find a Buick car clutch that was listed at 11. Might have been GS 455 ( big block) but I don't recall.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2018
The flywheel I listed is specifically for a Buick 350 and should be balanced properly. It shouldn't need additional balancing. When engines are externally balanced, it's for the design, not the individual engine, so a flywheel from any Buick 350 would be OK on any other Buick 350.
If the 225 flywheel bolts to the 350 flange, you can probably get it balanced to match the engine. If the balancing shop doesn't know where and how much weight a Buick 350 requires, then you would need to disassemble the engine and have them balance the damper, crank, rods, pistons, and flywheel as a set so they can figure out what is needed.
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
Yea. That's not happening.
I thought the flywheels were maybe specific to the engine. I see holes drilled in them and weight added here or there which I thought was individual. Shows what I know.
The new flywheel looks like a good solution. I'd probably spend more than that at the machine shop getting the 225 wheel to work. I'll have to do some looking and maybe stop by the machine shop.
Thanks
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2004
So, I finally got motivated to spend a little time on this heap. A little catch up first. Last fall, I had the 350 flywheel drilled and tapped to accept the 10.5 clutch for a 225. It laid in the garage all winter until today when bolted it up to the back of the 350 again and installed the Luk clutch kit followed by the bell housing. Made some studs to help me get the T18 on to the back of unit which helped immensely. So with this much bolted together I hung it all off the hoist and removed the engine stand brackets and bolted on the new motor mounts I bought. I started to drop the combination into the chassis when the first hassle appeared. The 3 belt crank pulley hit the front crossmember just barely but enough to hold things up.
So, a quick cut with sawzall and a bit more downward progress was made. Not sure if I can swap to a 2 groove pulley or if I'll clear off more of the crossmember. It will depend on whether I end up using the 3 groove pulley or not. TBD.
Next issue came with the driver side motor mount. I let the engine down and put the passenger side bolt in then let the engine down some more but the driver mount would not drop all the way down to the point of the holes lining up for the bolt. It needed like another 1/2 inch and would not go no matter what I did. So, up she goes and I swapped the new driver mount with the used mount that came on the 350. Still no luck. So, up she goes, all the way this time and I swapped the new passenger side mount for the old 350 mount. Still the same condition. So, up she goes again and I bolted on a pair of used 225 mounts that I had on the shelf. This time everything dropped right into place smooth as silk. So I guess we'll see if the used 225 mounts hold up to the 350. They definitely don't appear to be as stout.
With he weight of the engine in the chassis I have very little clearance between the front axle center section and the cross member. As I suspected, I think I'll need to change something in the front suspension ride height to gain some clearance. Not sure which way I'll attack this yet.
So, before continuing, I want to put some weight on the rear end of this pile of junk and see where things sit. How much weight should put back there? The front will have probably another 100 lbs on it with the winch and stuff. So...what...4,5,600 pounds on the back? The fuel tanks will be mounted amidship so the weight on the back should consider the body tub, HD rear bumper, spare parts and tools and a planned bed mounted spare tire. I know it's all kind of speculative at this point and the thing may not always have the load in it but a rough guess would be appreciated. I'm kind of thinking 4-500 lbs but what do I know. Comments and suggestions are welcome so fire away.
Oh and I'll get to drawing up my thoughts on the crossmember and get to work on that.
So, a quick cut with sawzall and a bit more downward progress was made. Not sure if I can swap to a 2 groove pulley or if I'll clear off more of the crossmember. It will depend on whether I end up using the 3 groove pulley or not. TBD.
Next issue came with the driver side motor mount. I let the engine down and put the passenger side bolt in then let the engine down some more but the driver mount would not drop all the way down to the point of the holes lining up for the bolt. It needed like another 1/2 inch and would not go no matter what I did. So, up she goes and I swapped the new driver mount with the used mount that came on the 350. Still no luck. So, up she goes, all the way this time and I swapped the new passenger side mount for the old 350 mount. Still the same condition. So, up she goes again and I bolted on a pair of used 225 mounts that I had on the shelf. This time everything dropped right into place smooth as silk. So I guess we'll see if the used 225 mounts hold up to the 350. They definitely don't appear to be as stout.
With he weight of the engine in the chassis I have very little clearance between the front axle center section and the cross member. As I suspected, I think I'll need to change something in the front suspension ride height to gain some clearance. Not sure which way I'll attack this yet.
So, before continuing, I want to put some weight on the rear end of this pile of junk and see where things sit. How much weight should put back there? The front will have probably another 100 lbs on it with the winch and stuff. So...what...4,5,600 pounds on the back? The fuel tanks will be mounted amidship so the weight on the back should consider the body tub, HD rear bumper, spare parts and tools and a planned bed mounted spare tire. I know it's all kind of speculative at this point and the thing may not always have the load in it but a rough guess would be appreciated. I'm kind of thinking 4-500 lbs but what do I know. Comments and suggestions are welcome so fire away.
Oh and I'll get to drawing up my thoughts on the crossmember and get to work on that.
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