To Herm or Not to Herm...

Trying to decide what to do with my steering on my M38A1-

Sometimes when I can't make up my mind on something, I have to write down the factors I'm juggling around in my head and the solution becomes clear. Sometimes. So since my mind isn't quite right due to the Coronas last night and the cold medicine from this morning, I figured I could write it down here. Maybe you guys could add some perspective or just slap me around a little.

The Jeep:
1952 or 53 M38A1 with 4.3 V6, SM420 and D18

The dilemma:
Need to find a way to set up power Saginaw steering... Herm or Mcruff style?

The first issue is the grille- it mounts to the Jeep by 2 hinges on the frame rails. I want to keep these since they're one of those things that makes an A1 different from a CJ5. The Mcruff plate will probably interfere with the hinge on the driver's side. In addition, if I mount the box as high as I would like, I think it would require cutting holes into the grille for the fluid lines to pass through. I don't want to do that. To get the clearance needed to avoid these issues, the box would have to be mounted pretty low which I think wouldn't be very strong- not to mention it could get hung up on rocks and stuff.

With Herm's kit, the box is mounted behind the crossmember. This would solve the issues of the fluid lines and the grille hinges and could make mounting a winch one day a lot easier. My engine mounts have been tacked to the frame so I could set the engine in. I wanted to get the engine in as high up and as far forward as possible. I had acheived just that, though it now looks like I'd have to move it around again for Herm's kit to work. It wouldn't be too difficult to break the mounts free and get it all figgered out with Herm's mount in place but my gut tells me the engine will be mounted a lot lower than I would like and probably really far back in the frame. I guess I wouldn't know until I tried though.

I think I am starting to see the light. Maybe I am hallucinating. I guess I need to weigh out the issues to see which are most important to me.
Has anyone installed Herm's kit? I've seen the pictures on his site which were somewhat helpful though it would be better to hear from someone who has set one up. Last week, I sent Herm some pictures of my arrangement and I'm waiting to hear back from him to hear his verdict.

What do you guys think? What else should I consider? Am I missing anything other than my mind?

As always, thanks for any input!

Going back to bed now.

 

I am putting a 4.3/SM465/D18 setup in my 3b and will be using Herm's setup. Main reason I chose it over a standard saginaw swap was I noticed on trails that the steering box was the one of the first things to drag across the rocks. And we ran across a few CJ's with ripped off box's.

 

plan on using herm's kit this winter. worst case is to relocate the :v6: in the frame.

 

I don't like being restricted to a "kit"
then you have to do things a certain way
unique problems sometimes require custom soloutions
mock up a saginaw and move it around, high and low
mock up a steering shaft and do the same
extra time spent now is well worth the effort, IMO

 

I've got to ask this, my steering box doesn't even hang below my spring hanger,
and thats with the stock length shackles and the box and bracket roughly flush
with the top of the frame rail. How much higher do you think you can get with
herms kit. The pitman arm still has to hook to the same tie rod set up and with
Herms kit you loose all room to work on getting a fuel pump or anything else in
the engine compartment without removing things. That was my big reason for
putting it out on the frame horn to start with. You could also move the mount
up about another ¾"-1" and still not have problems with the power steering hoses.




Not saying this design is perfect but I see no advantage to the setup Herm designed,
like Jim said you're stuck where the mount is made to put it.

 

I finally got a hold of Herm yesterday. His bracket is movable fore and aft on the frame but not up and down. The main advantage for my application as I see it is that the area between the front crossmember and the grille will be open, making it easier to add a winch down the road and ensuring that I won't have to mess with the hinges on the grille. As Herm told me, frame flexing (caused by the steering box) is virtually eliminated when the box is mounted further back on the frame, between the crossmember and engine mounts- another plus. I think I'm going to have to be the oddball and try it. I guess if it isn't what I thought it would be and I decide to ax it, I can always go the conventional route. I know I'll have plenty of tech support here if I do! 8) Thanks for the input everyone!

Mike

 

To me, mounting the steering box behind the axle has some clear mechanical advantages - IF there is enough room to do it. However, when Jeep went to power steering, they mounted the box ahead of the axle. They also added a large new crossmember at the location of the box. My main concern with mounting the steering box on the frame horn is how much stress is placed on the frame horn. Certainly without the front bumper in place, the mounting would be too weak, and a brace to the opposite frame rail seems like a good idea.

However, there are a lot of Jeeps out there that have been successfully converted to the conventional Saginaw steering, and you have a lot of experience to draw from on this site. If you like the idea of mounting the steering behind the axle, you don't neccessarily have to use Herm's kit. I recall that a member here has converted to a Scout steering box, which has a similar configuration to the Ford van box that Herm uses. You could also make your own mounting for the Ford box, generally following Herm's pattern. Of course, you'll be more on your own if you do this, but I'm sure the board will provide suggestions if you encounter a problem.

 

Just finished installing power steering with use of Herms kit. It is currently getting new brake lines installed so I have yet to do the road test. I will be submitting pictures and write more about the install as soon as I can (If anyone cares).

I would like to thank both Herm and Mcruff for providing their TOP NOTCH parts!

 

Mike this is a link to a member here website about using a Scout steering box. Maybe he'll see it and talk about it.
http://www.jeeptech.com/oliver/Modifications/steering1.htm
I did almost the same type conversionon a Suzuki Samuria using a steering box and pump from a 90's something Nissian Hardbody pickup. Surprisingly easy. Can't see why it wouldn't work on a Jeep.
Looking at the pictures of Mike's it looks like you'd escape any interference.
The first one I did for myself I had the problems that you described since and learned to use multiple u-joints and remote mount bearings.
GOOD LUCK.

 

My decison to go with Herm's kit was because I could get a box mount from him which gave me a starting point. My '58 sports a 283 chevy with a front cradle mount and a heavily modified front cross member and lowered radiator. I felt that in my case, mounting the box out front would be a little more difficult in routing the shaft and lines, given the modified crossmember and motor mounts.

I was aware that Herm's mount would sit right where my exsisting motor mount was and that I'd need to move to side motor mounts. I got a set from advance adapters and welded them in so the position of the engine would not change. On the drivers side, I had to fab a totally different mount up so it would clear the the shaft which was yet to come. A set of sanderson headers for a '55 chevy were installed to also help clear the shaft and motor mount.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2671999660064910764JmbqUV

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2122402480064910764hyqPSy


With the box in place and the new motor mount welded in, I started dreaming up ways to snake the shaft around. Given the fixed postion of the box, motor mounts, motor and steering column, I wasn't able to use a straight, 2 u-joint shaft set up because of clearance issues. I had to use 3 joints with a support bearing. None of the joints are clocked too hard and i have smooth steering on flat and at full flex.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2747161770064910764XAyyIv

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2393882590064910764ShtFdf

I retained the stock column with some modifications to the bottom. A bronze busing inside, a support collar outside and a mounting plate, made the column turn easy and still stay rigid.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2195673340064910764WpuPtF

A pump mount also needed made and while I dreaded this part, it turned out fairly easy. The new mount moved the pump up and out of the way of the box, but not too far up to interfer with and belts or other pulleys. The lines weren't so bad either. My pump and box uses flared fittings and they were easily obtained at a NAPA hose shop. It took some twisting to get the hoses right, then I had them crimped at the hose shop as well.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2744072570064910764BehiQx

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2196088690064910764uIXtRD

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2766657820064910764ZjgzZm

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2440490950064910764KooGaf

The whole package turned out better than I expected. The jeep turns super easy, doesn't wander and totally changed the on and off road handling. I made Herm's kit work for me, just as I prolly could have made mcruffs kit work as well. Unless its a stocker, every different jeep present new challenges and obstacles that you have to work around. I hope my experiences bring some insight on what options are out there.

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2495581100064910764jNTcmq

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2399174850064910764tzfTlU

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2412545890064910764OkJbDG

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2920101740064910764AyRKrW

http://community.webshots.com/photo/547064103/2955318430064910764MpMzHn

 

The winch mounting should be a none issue.
I have a forward sagi conversion; I also have a Ramsey 6000# winch up front.
jeepngem has a sagi conversion; he has an 8274 mounted in a custom made mount in the opening; it's down low behind the bumper.
granted, you will have to fabricate the mount, it won't be store bought off-the-shelf.
but it is very do-able; lots and lots of Jeeps have them

 

Look at my avatar. I have a Saginaw up front and a Koenig PTO winch behind the bumper beside the box. The only real issue I have with Herm's set up is you are limited on location and it takes up valuable engine bay space for later changes/upgrades. I feel the Saginaw is a better way to go for "down the road" possibilitys. Also, I've never had an issue with my box hitting rocks or anything else. The spring and mount always hit first. I used to have my Saginaw manual box up high like mentioned, but it created an ugly mess with a hole in the grill and crossmember which in retrospect was completely unnecessary. When I went to power steering I moved the box down which allowed the steering shaft to hook up under the crossmember, got the box down out of the way of the grill and winch mounts, and put my drag link angle where it should be. If placed carefully you should not have to cut any holes in the grill for the fittings or hoses. Normally they can be routed under the grill, through the slats in the grill, or between the bottom part of the front inner fender and frame. McRuff makes a heckuva plate and what not for this and I highly recommend his design, but he didn't prototype this. That same conversion has been going on since at least the 60's with very good results all down the line. My $.02 worth.