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The Square Deal

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by duffer, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. Dec 24, 2013
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    John..................Very Nice..........so what do they flow? and Merry Christmas!
     
  2. Dec 24, 2013
    tomatolane

    tomatolane Lane

    Chattanooga...
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    Sep 3, 2012
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    465
    You defiantly, need to hide a mighty mouse sticker some where on it LOL

    X2 I would love to know the flow also, to compare the dif. what mine flowed.

    AFR SBC heads flow great.And a very nice combustion chamber, what did they CC ?

    And do you know what gasket thickness you are going with?

    What quench are you shooting for ? .038 to .044 ?

    Add.

    And are you going to use same diameter bore,gasket?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2015
  3. Dec 24, 2013
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    AFR's numbers for the CNC'ed PN 1095:
    lift intake exhaust
    .200 151 125
    .300 211 172
    .400 260 207
    .500 293 224
    .550 304 229
    .600 308 233

    Max valve lift on cam is .571 and .531 for intake and exhaust respectively. I think they will be a good compromise between getting too big and still feeding adequate air for this thing. Gaskets will be Fel-Pro 1003's that are 0.041" thick with a 4.166" ID. It would have been nice to find something closer to the actual bore but so it goes. Guess if it causes problems one could punch it the other .040" R)
     
  4. Dec 24, 2013
    tomatolane

    tomatolane Lane

    Chattanooga...
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    Thats good enough flow, to make 550/575 crank horsepower, if the rest of the combo matches the heads/cam, which so far you seem to be on track,to be very close to those numbers.
     
  5. Dec 26, 2013
    Heatseeker

    Heatseeker Member

    Lathrop Ca.
    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2009
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    354
    Oliver rods are made by Callies. At least they were when I built the big block in my boat. I bought my crank, rods, bearings and pistons direct from Callies and have had zero issues with these parts in 8 years of beating on it pretty severely.

    This will be an interesting mouse story when completed!
     
  6. Feb 11, 2014
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    OK small block gurus. Oiling? Block is set up to go either wet or dry sump and either a dry sump or external wet sump would seem desirable for no other reason than to take the pump loading off the bronze distributor drive gear that must be used with the billet cam. However, I am having a bit of heart burn using a belt run oil pump for street/trail use, not to mention trying to get one fitted up in an extremely space deficient area at the front of the block. Experiences?
     
  7. Feb 11, 2014
    Mike S

    Mike S Sponsor

    Cameron Park Ca.
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    Dry sump not needed or reasonable in your application---------------IMHO.
     
  8. Feb 11, 2014
    tomatolane

    tomatolane Lane

    Chattanooga...
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    X2

    Unless you plan on ringing it to a 10,000 rpm small block,It will not be worth the expense.

    But if you like the look of the reservoir,regulator,pump,and cooler, and have the money to spend....I say yes YUMMY YUMMY YUMMY, not to mention great consistent non foamed up oil pressure. :)
     
  9. Mar 17, 2014
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Posted this pic in off topic but will repost here so it stays with the thread.
    [​IMG]

    de block

    I may be going with a Lunati crank. Callies is looking like a lost cause.
     
  10. Dec 25, 2015
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Duffer, anything new with this build? And, Merry Christmas to both you and your wife.
     
  11. Apr 9, 2016
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    A bit of an up-date. Finally did get the Callies crank. All the rotating pieces have been balanced, along with the McLeod clutch and 20lb steel flywheel.

    The cam turned out to be the proverbial can of worms, but I did get an education in cam grinding. Seems everyone uses blanks from only 2 or 3 manufactures. The block being odd ball, there was a limited selection of blanks, all of them destined for grinds far wilder than what I needed. David McCarver at Comp no doubt had a great suggested grind but turned out they couldn't get a suitable blank and didn't really want to deal with it further. It was the same case with every other cam grinder I contacted-until I hit on Jones Cam Designs. Not cheap, but no hiccups what-so-ever for them to grind a 8620 steel billet cam. So I ended up a hair more on the "wild" side at 224/228, .544 lift both sides, 112 lobe centers and 108 intake centerline. Picked up a set of Comp's Ultra Gold rockers last week so the only remaining item is push rods but those will have to wait until it's fully mocked up.

    I finally invested in Comp's DynoSim5 to see what the bottom end torque would sort of look like with the Jones grind. Think it will totally suffice but more on that later.

    Now, just need the time to assemble but that seems to be a rare commodity right now.
     
  12. Apr 9, 2016
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    You're probably already aware but Smith Pushrods out of Oregon, Redmond or Bend iirc makes very nice stuff. They do a lot of NASCAR stuff. I had them make the ones for the race Jeep 4.3.
     
  13. Apr 9, 2016
    Wenaha

    Wenaha Member

    West Coast
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    Feb 6, 2014
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    This motor is going into your FLATFENDER? Does it have seat belts?
     
  14. Apr 9, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    John, what rocker ratio did you decide on?.........and on the push-rods did either the engine builder or Cam grinder come up with a measurement?...........if not you'll have to pre-assemble the motor with test springs in the cylinder heads and also get a pair of adjustable push-rods...........then cycle the motor and valve train and see what length you need to get maximum lift and also the correct geometry at the rocker. Along with also seeing what OD size you can fit in the space.........do you know what the closed and open over the nose pressure of the valve springs are in your cylinder heads? That will help you or your supplier choose the correct sized OD and wall thickness push-rod you need to control the valves at RPM...........

    As Nick mentioned Smith Bros are now in Redmond , Oregon formally from Bend and prior to that a couple of LA Brothers who years ago moved North to escape the Smog...........great guys and can either build you a set per your dimension's and tips you need or as I normally do sell you the raw materials and you can build a set in a good lathe using the proper reamer and tooling ( old lifter parts ) to assemble them. A long reach micrometer is also needed to verify lengths. Trav-a-dials on the lathe also make the job much easier cutting tubing............As mentioned above they will need to know what the over the nose open pressure is.
     
  15. Apr 9, 2016
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Yep, Smith Brothers is what I will order. Running those in the 381 and determined the length like Terry suggested with the adjustable push rods/test springs

    -actually have 3 different length pairs of those so should have a pair with the right range. Will repeat the 381 process with this one but will have to come up with a pair of solid lifters that match my longer than stock hydraulics. For the 381 with stock lifter length, it wasn't a big deal-my machine shop friend had a set I could borrow. Will not be the case with this.

    closed and open over the nose pressure of the valve springs are in your cylinder heads?
    155 and 433 respectively


    Yep, 3B and yes, I think all kinds of bad things could happen if one is juvenile. But at 71, I don't think it will be a problem. What I am after with this is a minimum of 200 ft lbs at idle. I think it is going to be more than that.
     
  16. Apr 9, 2016
    Wenaha

    Wenaha Member

    West Coast
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    Duffer --

    You should exceed 200 lbs. ft. handily. I am hoping for something like 60 hp from my L134, but I did shave the head to 73CC combustion chambers :D

    How is the weather in Bozeman? I am heading up there in summer - fishing and over to my dog trainer in Columbus.

    Nice project… I understand 70, but have not attained 71 years of age yet.

    Mike
     
  17. Apr 10, 2016
    chris423

    chris423 Sponsor

    greeneville tn
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    Dec 30, 2014
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    I seen a 454 dart block in a jet boat . supercharged spraying nos 1300hp plus . That dart block is bullet proof . i cant imagine the hp you will end up with looking for the torque ???????
     
  18. Apr 10, 2016
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    Instantly variable. But summers are usually nice here. Columbus gets a bit warmer-probably a couple thousand feet lower.





    Soooo, bringing the Willys? Would be a memorable trip hitting the Beartooth Highway sans top.
     
  19. Apr 10, 2016
    Wenaha

    Wenaha Member

    West Coast
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    I would like to bring the Willys… I am building it to carry my bird dogs on hunting trips. Unfortunately, I have to sell the Airstream and get a toy hauler that will carry my Willys. I should be done and running my midsummer.
     
  20. Mar 23, 2017
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power 2019 Sponsor

    Bozeman, MT
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    An update to this thread, which is going to be the 3B "build" thread and where I will park the rest of the stuff. I haven't had much time to work on the B as of late but have machined out a few pieces to mount the Holbrook's and sort of finished the remodel of the winch mounting/built-in fairlead.

    Spring hanger mounting plates:
    [​IMG]

    The incentive for those mounting plates was an incident, now many years back, when I manged to tear the left rear hanger off the frame back in the boonies. It was obvious there were some stress cracks that caused that to happen and with these plates, the loading should be spread out over twice the area. They will be welded to the inside 3/16" frame plating on both ends and in the front, to the outside 1/4" plating as well.

    The fairlead rebuild (I had previously built it into the bumper) was the result of a bent bottom roller shaft using the original Warn 5/8" cold rolled? shafts, no doubt bent during one of my reverse pulls that put all the loading on that roller. This version uses 4140 3/4" shafts.

    [​IMG]

    I had to re-bore the acetal copolymer rollers I had previously made for synthetic winch rope. Jury is still out as to whether or not those rollers will deflect enough under load to interfer at the corners. I left only about .020 to .030" clearance so the rope couldn't get pinched.

    [​IMG]

    In concert with the Holbrook's, a new D44 axle is being installed which resulted in a lot of modifications to the steering-still not all pieced together.

    [​IMG]

    The D44 utilized a WT J&P housing, Reid knuckles, Scout II outers (jury is still out on that too), Dutchman alloy axle shafts, Yukon gears, and an ARB locker.

    Then a bit of old history on the muffler skids rather than hijack someone's thread. They are made from 1/4" 6061 aluminum and are bolted to the bottom of the frame on the inside and to the square tube subframe I built under the cockpit area of the glass tub (really ancient history-1975) on the outside. Either will support the entire weight of the flatty.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Then there's the square deal. Just about zero progress on putting it together and the cam was the proverbial can of worms. In that crystal clear 20-20 hindsight, I should have ordered the block with standard size cam journals instead of Dart's standard which are big block journal size. That seemingly insignificant change resulted in none of the major cam companies having an off-the-shelf cam blank to cut a rather mild low end torque grind. None of those major vendors wanted anything to do with it but Jones Cam Designs (thanks Hot Rod Magazine!) came through with a billet grind.

    Comp Cams DynoSim5 is showing 407 ft lbs at 1000 rpm with a peak of 556 ft-lbs at 3500 rpm for Jones' creation. If reality is anywhere close to that modeling, it should be more than sufficient.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
    73 cj5 likes this.

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