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Rock Slider Ideas

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Apr 17, 2018.

  1. Apr 21, 2018
    browncoat

    browncoat Member

    Maitland Australia
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    Sep 1, 2016
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    410
    A couple of tips if you are interested in a short lesson on the theory of heating effects on metals.:blah:

    The hi lift jack bar would be more effective as a strong back if it was turned 90 degrees.
    The way it is clamped at the moment is the weakest way.
    It's best stiffness is through its deeper section.

    Having said that, I would not use the jack bar in that spot at all.


    Welding long sections means they will always bow to some extent because when metal is heated the grain structure in the heat zone expands, but when it cools those grains shrink back even more than they started.
    That's why these sort of things end up sucking inwards, in the centre.

    In fact these type of jobs usually ends up bowing in both directions, generally one way more than the other.

    If you consider the position of where the heat from the welds is going to be and understand that they will shrink the steel in that zone only, while the less heated "toes" of the angle iron will remain relatively cool and not shrink at all, you can probably visualize how the bow will be induced.

    Because the bow is going to happen in both directions I would recommend sitting the angle on a strong straight item like a bench or a heavy piece of beam, with a packer under the middle.
    Then pull each end down with a clamp to put a bow in the angle iron but in the opposite direction than the heat will try to do.

    With your limited access to heavy or straight things the next best thing would be 3 short pieces of your square tube and sit them between the toes of the angle iron and the jack bar.

    A bit like this when looking at the end;

    ^
    _______

    I

    Pack the centre one a bit with say around, 3/8 inch of steel packer.


    There is no hard and fast dimension to pack it to, it's more a matter of try it and judge the best you can.



    But the main tip I would offer is that there is no reason to fully weld the square to the angle if you want to try to keep things as straight as possible.

    A relatively small amount of weld is surprisingly strong.

    A 1/4 inch weld just 1 inch long will theoretically hold 1 ton of weight in shear.
    So a little goes a long way on something like a slider which is not likely to be point loaded to the extent that a stitch welded bar is going to let go in a dramatic fashion.

    If you are concerned with future rust forming in the unwelded seams they can be sealed with automotive grade sealants before painting.
     
    ITLKSEZ, Fly Navy and Bowbender like this.
  2. Apr 21, 2018
    Bowbender

    Bowbender I'm workin' on it!

    Northern Minn.
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    Helpful explanation. I'm still trying to get an understanding of shrinkage/warping on projects and how to work with it.
     
  3. Apr 21, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    fair enough - unfortunately with my clamps and the work I needed to hold together - that was the only way I could figure to even get the bar in there. Its certainly not helping much - except maybe as a good handle bar to move the work around. I figure now that I am done with the tack spots and can remove some of the clamps, I might be able to re-arrange the support bar into the 'corner' of the angle for more support. That being said, since I am welding more on the 'outside' of the slider, I should probably be more worried about the piece bowing inwards (shortening on the outside). I will have to study your diagram for supporting the piece with the square rods and see if I can make sense this afternoon. thanks....

    This is what I hope is the actual solution. I tried running long beads (if you can call my welds beads) last time - so going for the short 1inch one this time and not continuous. Will seal and then paint. Even without much rust protection, if these sliders rust out, it will be long after the jeep has finished rusting out.
     
  4. Apr 23, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Added the end caps: I envy those of you that can weld nicely. A little final touch up grinding and some paint and it should look okay. I also drilled all the mount holes. Have to weld the second 1" tube on to the angle iron (which includes a lot of grinding and rewelding for me) and then clean and prep for paint.
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Apr 23, 2018
    browncoat

    browncoat Member

    Maitland Australia
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    410
    Have you found you're satisfied with the strength of it with the square tube being stitch welded and not fully welded?
    What type of welder and amperage have you got the welder set at?

    If the job has stayed straight so far you can add more welds if you wanted.

    Another way to add strength if you are doubting your welds, is to include a small triangle shaped gusset at say around 1 foot spaces on top of the square tube and up to the top edge of the angle.

    I've seen worse welds.
    It will all look good once painted.(y)
     
  6. Apr 23, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    I think its strong enough - its more a matter of ugly welds. I am using a bottom end Lincoln 120 MIG. I am running the highest voltage - settings say for 1/8". The angle is 3/16" but the tube is 1/8". I am getting better being a bit more patient and letting the pool really develop. I have a lot of trouble seeing anything when welding and I have trouble moving in a straight line along the seem etc.

    Here are some on the bottom that I think came out nice (for me). First try even (well on the second slider so I kind got some stuff figured out).
    [​IMG]

    Here are the ones on the top - I really struggle with keeping the arc down in the seam and not just having it jump to the angle. I don't have a good way to set the work up so it sits on some metal saw horses and sometimes I have to twist and turn a bit to get things at the right angle and then its tough to move in a nice consistent manner so I walk off the seam a lot. These are some of the ugly ones that will need some clean-up if not re-done. Kind of embarrassing but also trying to learn.
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. Apr 23, 2018
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
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    I’m not sure about your vision but I must use my reading glasses to see good enough to get a decent weld.
     
  8. Apr 23, 2018
    browncoat

    browncoat Member

    Maitland Australia
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    Same here re, using reading glasses.

    Don't be embarrassed, welding is a skill that can't be picked up instantly.

    As long as you don't mind me sticking my nose in offering advice.


    120 amps is very low for getting a good weld on those thicknesses so you have done well.

    Wire size?
    The smaller the wire size the faster it needs to come out, but it will also burn a bit hotter than a thicker wire.


    It's very hard to coach from half a world away but try having the power (volts) dial all the way up, then gradually dialing the wire feed down till the arc is spraying metal from the tip of the wire coming out of the hand piece rather than blobs coming of and crossing the arc to the parent metal.

    If your machine can get that happening then happy days, all you need to do then is put a little weaving motion from one side of the joint to the other side and you will find things go smooth.

    If it can't get a spray arc effect going with the settings available on the welder then another way to help the weld bite in to the parent metal better is to pre heat the work piece.
    Getting it up to a temperature that water sizzles off the metal is ideal but any sort of pre heating would help.
    I am guessing you wouldn't have access to oxygen/ acetylene gas bottles so possibly a big camping or grill type gas burner and LPG / propane bottle might work??

    What sort of helmet and shade setting are you using is the next question?
    A lot of the time you can come down to a shade 9 or 10 without risking eye damage, especially if it is only welding for a short time frame .
    That can help you pick up where the seams are easier.
     
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  9. Apr 24, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    yup - 1/8" is max according to its own specs, so power is all the way up to highest setting.

    this does help - its how I managed to get the 'better' welds on the bottom seam.

    Didn't think about this - would be worth trying along with pre-heating a bit. If I can get the wire a bit hotter and more 'sizzle' or spray - then it won't get as much of that globular material transfer. Will definitely try that - I even saw wire that was one step smaller at the store the other day when I was replenishing my wire supply. thanks
     
  10. Apr 24, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Cleaned up the welds on the top - they stand out on the bare metal, but should fade into the paint. Whaddaya think - time to drill the body? Hate drilling holes into old good sheetmetal.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    The driver side is the done the same - just hard to get pics with the garage wall on that side. Thinking will paint flat/satin black. Did see some spray can bedliner - could use that. Would appreciate what I think is more durable finish, but it might have more texture than I like and would not match the smooth/powder coated front and rear bumper.
     
  11. Apr 24, 2018
    browncoat

    browncoat Member

    Maitland Australia
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    Have your holes missed any structures inside?
    Then go for it.
     
  12. Apr 24, 2018
    Focker

    Focker That's a terrible idea...What time? Staff Member

    WA
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    Looks good to me.

    As I've said before... Welding has really improved my grinding skills.
     
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  13. Apr 24, 2018
    tymbom

    tymbom Member

    Siskiyou Co.
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    I'm an okay welder... A good grinder though
     
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  14. Apr 25, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Painted today - I didn't finish up the metal work quite as much as I probably should have getting everything nice and smooth. But I am hoping to take the jeep out this weekend for a trail run - and I might even put the sliders to use on one obstacle. Its easy to strip paint and redo if needed - thinking I will run them for the summer and see how it works. I tried a new paint sequence - I used spray can rustoleum self-etching primer for the first time, hoping it might help the durability of the top coat paint on the bare metal (which I did rough up and wipe down clean with solvent). I've never use self-etching primer before - so I probably put on too many coats. From some post research - it seems I should have used just a couple light coats. Anyway - it left way more 'texture' than I expected and the texture was a bit inconsistent. Sort of a fine grit texture in spots (probably where it was too thick). I could have let it cure for the evening and sanded and then painted, but I went for the spray paint anyway. The flat satin black paint shows the inconsistent grit texture through it - but if its durable it will work for now. I can strip and smooth up the metal work in places (and maybe even reweld a couple spots) and possibly try the self-etching primer again and either sand it and then paint, or possibly spray a coat of regular primer over it and then paint. Stuff will sit overnight and then drill and mount on either Thurs or Fri.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Apr 26, 2018
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

    exploring the...
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    [​IMG][​IMG]
    A little late on the idea part but ........
    Here is the bent ones on the boys.
     
  16. Apr 27, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Love drilling holes in my jeep :rolleyes:
    [​IMG]

    Finished product (for now) - will probably pull them off at some point and clean up/replace some of the welds etc and repaint
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Now to put them to use on Sat - well hopefully not, but should be a bit less stressful on some of the rock steps.
     
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  17. Apr 27, 2018
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Spokane Valley, WA
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    Holes are better then a completely caved-in side. (y)
     
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  18. Apr 27, 2018
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member

    Sacramento Ca.
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    Looks great (y)(y). Would like to get mine done soon.
     
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  19. Apr 27, 2018
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    X2 - that looks like something I could do.
     
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  20. Apr 27, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    if I can...any of you can. Go for it. Its been (and will continue to be) a fun learning project. And its way cheaper than any you can buy.
     
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