Renegade ID discussion

Re: Amazing Discovery !

OverEngineer,

I wouldn't mind seeing your wiring detail myself.
But I don't believe that alone will be conclusive because the 462 is purported to have the additional gauges as well.

I feel confident that your jeep can be posatively identified.
It may or may not be a Renegade I.
It could perhaps be the more elusive 462 or a Camper Special ?

Have you ever narrowed down your jeeps exact build date by comparing your serial number with other close numbered 69/70 CJ-5's.

AFAIK... The Red paint color indicates a Renegade I anomilly.

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

Oldtime,
I welcome the opportunity to send you photos of the wiring and anything else you can think of. The harness matches up to the description of the ren 1. Seven wires, two reds, etc.. Based on data the forum has. My jeep was built early in Aug 1969. The red paint has always been the big quesion to me as well. A left over 462 is probable. The camper special is a mystery for me. I don't think it would have a swing out tire carrier if that were the case. I just don't know. The 462 did have the extra gauges. I don't know about the springs, differentials and interior.

Do we know for certain the three color rule applies to 1970? I've seen a paint card for 1970 and those three colors are not on it. If we know this for a fact, my jeep can not be a renegade. There is only one little chip that shows green and I don't think this was repainted.

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

Glenn just confimed for me that he does indeed have the W-1195-R1 parts manual.
I'll be able to pick it up and browse thru it hopefully by this weekend.
So another copy has survived.

we should ask a mod to split manual discussion off to it's own thread

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

OverEngineer,

Wow August of 1969 seems to be right on the cusp between 462 and Renegade !.

I agree the 1969 CJ-5 Camper Special seems completely impossible due to the rear swing out carrier.
The camper special; would have had a Meyers half cab and no roll bar.
I suppose your jeep has a roll bar and no trace of the half cab so we must rule out the camper special. You with me so far ?
Heres a link to the camper special : http://www.oldcarbrochures.com/main.php?g2_itemId=52739

Ready to dig into this deeper ? As in 462 vs. Renegade I ?

jpflat2a,

Excellent !
That W 1195 RI will likely provide some much needed clues.
More later ......

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

The Jeep is pretty original. Has the Sport Bar and the original "convertable" top. I would love to explore the 462 vs ren.

Should this thread be separated. I appologize if this counts as a hijack

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

OverEngineer,

Go ahead, send me those pics.

Not a hijacked thread.. my topic intent was only to stir up a serious Renegade debate. I will start a new thread with specifics.

Oh just 1 more thing before I start a new thread.
Is your Jeep titled as a 1969 or as a 1970 ?

jpflat2a,

If the W-1195 R1 fails to include the very obvious Renegade II parts such as the Renegade II speed stripes, the Renegade II rear panel and the Renegade II mag wheels; we can then be assured that all parts simply identified as "Renegade" must in fact be "Renegade I "

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

I'll get the manual on Sunday and try and keep it for a few days to go thru it.

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

Ken,
I will need an address to email the photos. The Jeep is registered as a 1970. I look forward to nailing this thing down
Robin

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

OverEngineer,

A Jeep built in the 1969 model year could possibly be sold later and then titled as a 1970 vehicle.
A Jeep built in the 1970 model year would never be titled as a 1969 unless the title was altered.

If your Jeep was titled as a 1969 that would have indicated a strike against it concerning Renegade I designation.
In other words... No one has ever heard of a 1969 Renegade I.

So now it is truly safe to say it could be either a model 462 or Renegade I.

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

Yes sir -- I would like to see them also..

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

I don't think there is any way to know exactly when the Renegade I was truely introduced. We have seen examples here of 1971 Renegade I's even though that is not commonly known. I would not discount the introduction of the Renegade I prior to the model year switch unless there is documentation to prove otherwise. Is there any documentation what exactly was included in the 462 package? Maybe Jim's borrowed manual has some reference?

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

yeah
lets see em!

 

Re: Amazing Discovery !

Mark, I truly agree.

I previously stated that 1969 is a strike against a jeep concerning Renegade I designation.
I have no absolute evidence and so at this time can not rule out a 1969 on that premise alone.
I specifically meant to say a 1969 Renegade I looks mighty suspicious.

Thanks for helping to clarify a grey zone.

OverEngineer,

Currently, I have no documentation concerning the model 462.
So rather than address 462 vs. Renegade.
I believe its best to clarify what I can document. That being Renegade I, II identification.

If your Jeep does not fit the detailed Renegade I criteria then it should be considered as a qualifying 462 candidate.

Moderators,

From its beginning this topic has revolved around "Renegade identification"
So if I may I will continue on that note without starting a new thread.

I attempted to edit my topic title on the day I initially posted it. No access.
So if you like you may re-title this topic as " Renegade identification".

Thanks Guys, I'm about ready to document.

 

It is currently my belief that the 462 was intended as a sales marketing ploy.The 462 being similar to a concept car on a lesser scale.

The concept itself seems to be one centered on extreme heavy duty performance as in" the ultimate tow package".
All heavy duty ( HD ) options were integrated into one machine.
I believe the HD options included HD battery, HD alternator, HD cooling, HD suspension,and HD frame with basic draw bar.
Since this is very much a tow package the newly available 4.89 geared rear axle having flanged shafts
and the newly developed Trac-Lok was chosen. The good stuff. You get the picture !

Apparently the concept was well accepted and Kaiser began limited production after adding the final touch, a "sports package" for appeal.
Likely then it was re-designated as Renegade I. Enough speculation.

Since such a small amount of information is available on the 462 I feel it can best be understood by comparing it to its prodigy the Renegade I.
So here and now we need clarify just exactly what a Renegade I entails.In doing so we will also distinguish the Renegade I from the Renegade II.

Below is a thorough breakdown of all parts that are listed as "Renegade specific".
I have also included a section on other parts that I believe distinguish Renegade I and II.
These parts are entered as they appear in the AMC Universal Parts Catalog W-1195 R2 copyright 3-18-71.

Group....Part #.............PARTS SPECIFIC TO RENEGADE I ONLY

25-01....930407...........Rim and disc, assy ( 15 x 5.5 ) ( Also used on Renegade )
25-01....994733...........Rim and disc, assy ( 15 x 8.00 ) ( Renegade )
25-01....948722...........Kit, wheel cover ( Renegade )
31-13....SE-2073-200...Kit, Spare tire carrier, swingout ( For Renegade I only )
35-23A..977895...........Kit, reflector, rear quarter panel ( Renegade )
35-101..984277...........Kit, Speed stripes ( black ) ( Renegade )
35-101..984276...........Kit, Speed stripes ( white ) ( Renegade )

....................................PARTS SPECIFIC TO RENEGADE II ONLY

25-01....999156...........Wheel, mag dish ( 7x15 ) ( Renegade II )
25-01....999157...........Nut and washer assy, acorn ( Renegade II )
31-08....985594...........Panel, body rear ( Renegade II )
31-13....985625...........Bracket, support spare wheel assy ( Renegade II )
35-101..985615...........Kit, speed stripes ( black ) ( Renegade II )
35-101..985614...........Kit, speed stripes ( white ) ( Renegade II )
35-102..985560...........Kit, padding, roll bar ( Renegade II )


....................................PARTS SPECIFIC TO BOTH RENEGADE I and II

10-14....992859...........Pan, oil ( incl shield ) ( Renegade )
15-07....994029...........Harness, engine wiring assy. ( Renegade )
15-07....994396...........Harness, underbody wiring assy.( Renegade )
16-01....948666...........Ammeter assy.( Renegade )
16-01....F-144035........Bushing, reducing oil pressure signal switch ( to block ) ( Renegade )
16-01....A -17750.........Elbow 90*, oil pressure signal switch ( Renegade )
16-01....928224...........Gauge, oil pressure ( Renegade )
16-01....991175...........Resistor, ( 75 ohms) ammeter and oil gauge ( Renegade )
16-01....909535...........Socket, cable, ammeter and oil pressure gauge to light switch ( qty. 2 )
16-01....928222...........Switch, signal,oil pressure ( in block ) ( Renegade )
16-01....947956...........Wire assy., oil pressure gauge to ignition switch ( Renegade )
35-100..SE-207-3300...Kit, roll bar ( Renegade )


.....................................OTHER COMPONENTS OF THE RENEGADE PACKAGE


10-06...1399524...?......Piston and pin assy assy. ( 9.0 to 1 )
11-02....992533...........Cable, clutch control ( 58.18 )
14-01....943292...?.......Radiator, ( extra cooling ) ( 22" wide ) ( core right side outlet )
14-05....942015...?.......Fan assy ( 7 blades )
15-01A..943021...?.......Alternator assy ( 55 amp ) ( A12 NW 602 )
16-01....928266............Bracket, mounting ammeter and light assy.( also used on Renegade )
17-09....931383............Gear, driven, speedometer ( 16 T ) ( also used on Renegade )
18-01....937384............Case, transfer assy ( w / brake ) ( ( use with T-14A transmission ) ( use with optional 4.88 )
20-01....941052............Axle front assy ( 4.88 to 1 ) ( Model 27AF ) ( LHD )
21-01....994211............Axle, rear assy ( 4.89 to 1 ) ( Flanged ) ( Model 44) ( Trac-Lok )
26-01....990033............Frame assy ( LHD ) ( use with T-14 A ) After 8305 V6 239562 ) ( Heavy Duty )
26-01....947287............Spacer, ( .62" ) engine rear support crossmember ( metal ) ( w/;T-14 A transmission ) (qty. 4 )
26-04....947378............Kit, drawbar ( Basic )
27-01....942165............Spring and bearing, front assy ( 12 leaves ) ( Eaton ) ( Heavy Duty )
27-02....925940...?.......Spring and bearing, rear assy ( 13 leaves ) ( Heavy Duty )
27-02....916092...?.......Spring and bearing, rear assy ( 12 leaves ) (Heavy Duty ) ( GVW 4750 lbs )
27-02....919708............Clip, rear spring (use wit 916092 and 925940 ) ( used with flanged axle shafts )
27-04....921896............Absorber , shock front assy ( Heavy Duty ) ( Monroe ) ( 1-3/16" diameter )
27-04....921897............Absorber , shock rear assy ( Heavy Duty ) ( Monroe ) ( 1-3/16" diameter )
31-03C..9xxxxx ...?.......Visor, sun assy drivers side ( charcoal )
31-03C..9xxxxx ...?.......Visor, sun assy passengers side ( charcoal )
31-04 .....94509............Kit safety rail passenger seat
31-04....976523............Pad, safety instrument panel ( charcoal ) ( stationary windshield )

Below are additional comments on specific parts.

# 948722 I believe these were stainless steel trim rings ?

# SE-2073-200 I believe this number is a typo. I think it should read # SE-207-3200. Seen above are the only two examples of the SE prefix in use. I believe "special equipment" may be inferred.

# 984277 Notice the numerical sequence of the Renegade I, II speed stripes.
This indicates a fairly close proximity yet a certain timeline distinction.

# 977895 This could turn out to be a crucial determining factor. Still researching.

# 948666 The Renegade ammeter is not the same as earlier optional ammeter # 928267.

# 1399524 I suspect that Renegades all had a specified compression ratio. 9-0 to 1 ?

# 943292 I believe the Renegades were equipped with HD cooling. ?

# 942015 So did Renegade use the 5 or the 7 blade fan ?

# 943021 I believe the Renegades had a HD alternator ?

# 928266 This bracket also was used with earlier optional ammeters.

# 931383 This part confirms that all Renegades had a 4.89 differential ratio.

# 937384 Distinct features of this large hole transfer case includes the 16 T speedometer driven gear and a 10 spline mainshaft gear.
I have noticed a very unusual transfer case mounting not specified in the parts catalog.

# 941052 Nothing special about the front axle except the gear ratio. Powr-Lok was never factory available for this axle.

# 990033 This special frame first shows up around the beginning of the 1968 with the advent of HD frames.

# 947287 These ( 4 )spacers drop the rear engine support crossmember.

# 925940 Another rear spring possibility ?

# 916092 I believe this was the rear spring that is typically used on Renegades ?

# 9xxxxx A variety of visors were optional at the time. Which ones ?

# 976523 This dash pad was an option of the time . Was this on all Renegades ?

I have not listed the seat trim options,the rear seat, the longitudinal wheelhouse pads,
nor the safety straps due to insufficient trim code data.

 

Patrick,

Thanks for the feedback.
For the record I'm not the authority on anything.
Like everyone else I am just trying to learn a little more.

The 9/69 built "Renegade I" that I saw has the rear flanged 4.89 Trac-Lok.
It's likely one of the earliest examples.
And yes I agree the Powr-Lok uses a little better construction.

Comments and questions are certainly welcomed.

 

Most (if not all ) of the specific parts listed for Renegade models are already known and confirmed above.

After comparing the 2 manuals, R1 and R2, side by side, really no difference in information other than superceded part numbers for the very same components already listed.
There are more serial number breaks listed regarding the start/end of certain components, but most of that info is in the later manual as well.

One interesting observation I did notice was the dash or instrument panel itself..
With Renagades having the factory installed oil/amp gauges to the left of the steering column, one would think that a specific part number for the dash panel would be listed; it's not; I found that rather odd. In other words, you wouldn't be able to order a Renegade specific dash/instrument panel. If the panel needed replacing for whatever the reason, the dealer/owner would simply drill the holes for the gauges and swap them over.
(I am talking for 1971 and prior models here.)

The HD cooling systems, axle ratios, wheels, HD spring assys, blah blah blah, were all optional and could be ordered on any Jeep.
Seven blade cooling fans seem to be more a regional option, like out here in the West, than a package specific item.

Even the frame will be suspect, as it is rather the manufacturer improving the frame over known problems due to twisting and cracking with thee arrival of the V6 option.
They were field kits to be installed by dealers/customers to strengthen the frames in certain areas.

So after almost all of the information has been digested, the best clues for determing a factory Renegade, in my opinion, would still be the engine wiring loom with the special plug and the second ballast resistor for the added on gauges.
That's something a dealer/Jeep owner wouldn't go to all the trouble to install or modify if he were simply installing aftermarket gauges. I believe Steve (beeser) may have discovered this clue during his search.

If someone has specific questions regarding the earlier R1 manual, I have it in my possession for as much time as we need. I have scanning capability as well if someone would like something scanned/posted. I'm not willing to copy the whole manual, page for page so please don't ask.

 

an interesting side note about the owner of the R1 manual.
He bought the parts manual when he bought his Jeep in 1969, a 1970 V6 CJ5.
He still owns the Jeep today, and it has over 350, 000 miles on it.