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Power Lok gurus.

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Corveeper, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. Jun 30, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Messages:
    817
    Time to place your bets on exactly how I screwed up replacing the clutch plates in the rear Dana 44’s Power Lok.
    Axle: full float converted Dana 44 with 6 bolt manual lock out hubs.
    Symptoms: I had noticed a little clicking going on at the drivers side rear lock out but just assumed it was the Power Lok releasing tension as I went around tight corners.
    The other day I lost forward motion and had to drive home on the front end.
    When I looked into it I found that the manual lockout on the drivers side was broken. Since I bought them used I didn’t give it much thought and replaced the lockouts on both sides with drive flanges.
    First thing I noticed backing it out of my garage is each time the clutch was even slightly engaged the drivers side tire would bark.
    Didn’t drive more than 10 minutes and lost forward motion again.
    This time when I pulled the flange off the drivers side hub all of the teeth had been stripped out of it.
    So obviously I’ve screwed something up, but what is it that would cause all that torque to be put to one side like that?
    Place your bets and I’ll let you know what it looks like once I get into it.
     
  2. Jun 30, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
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    8,513
    only thing I can think of would be one of the discs pinched or something on re-assembly.
    if all ypu did was put clutches in it, that rules out spline/tooth problems (I would think)
     
  3. Jul 1, 2010
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    12,529
    Yeah, sounds like a clutch stacking issue or difference in clutch pack thickness side to side. There are thin and thick discs which many people don't realize and they sometimes get mixed side to side, i.e. more thick on one side than the other.
     
  4. Jul 1, 2010
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2006
    Messages:
    3,466
    X 3
    I guess that the left side of the pack is bound up tight.
    The right side is normal to loose.

    Normally "Powr Lok" will be silent.
     
  5. Jul 1, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Messages:
    817
    Pinched disk is what I’m thinking also, particularly the way it’s banging that one side. But this is good info, I’ll definitely be on the look out for that.
    Guess this is what I get for getting lazy and thinking I know what I’m doing.:oops:

    I'll post pics when I get it out.
     
  6. Jul 1, 2010
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,538
    I had nothing but problems with locking hubs on the rear FF in my rig. Eventually, besides taking out three locking hubs, my Lock Right took the hit and it was fragged. Don't know if you are having the same problem, but the hubs tend to unlock themselves. Even with set screws, they still try to uinlock. When they get to a critical point and you put power to them they grenade. I switched to drive flanges and haven't had a problem since. Also went to a Detroit in the rear axle. What I'm saying is there may be nothing wrong with your Powerlok. As I recall I'm not the only one here that had problems with locking hubs on a FF D44.
     
  7. Jul 1, 2010
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
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    12,529
    I built my FF using Warn premium ZA bodied hubs probably 18 years ago and have had no problems. Running a lock rite, V-6, 33" tires. BUT I have witnessed the problems you're talking about. Warn came to the conclusion that most of the problems causing this was due to a tweaked axle housing. There is a fix, using a piece of tube inside the hub which locks up the hub solid and not relying on the spring to keep the gears engaged, but still allows you to unlock the hub. I have a couple of the pieces around somewhere, probably in the Jeep box just in case. These "tubes" or spacers took care of probably 90% of the problems. The down side to them is the hub has to be lined up just right or they won't engage.
    The fact it keeps happening to one side, even with a drive flange leads me to believe there is another issue somewhere.
     
  8. Jul 1, 2010
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
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    You are right on all counts Nickmil. It's entirely possible that I have a tweaked tube on the rear axle, although I don't really see how that would affect the hub. The problem I had was on the driver's side too, which being the long side of the tube, would probably be the easiest to bend. I'm going to have it checked before the final assembly of my junk. I haven't had a problem since I switched to drive flanges about 3 years ago.
     
  9. Jul 1, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
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    817
    I haven’t had a problem with the lockouts unlocking themselves, but I had multiple issues with the hub bolts working their way out and breaking off. I’ve got a spare hub that’s basically junk now because it not only has the remnants of a bolt broken off in it but two E-Z Outs broken off in the remnants of the bolt.
    Flanges took care of that problem also.
    But, I wanted the manual lockouts for the easy flat towing, so I got some grade 8 all thread from Fastenal and cut it into studs then bolted a set of manual lockouts back on with star washers and Nyloc nuts. That modification was good as far as not shaking loose but now I’ve got the Power Lok issues. And my problem is definitely in the Power Lok. It was working, though very loosely, until I replaced clutch packs.
     
  10. Jul 1, 2010
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
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    What happens is when the tubes are tweaked, even a little, it loads the hub gears at an angle which forces the gear in and out constantly which wipes them out. That wears out the hub body and everything else then they break, usually pretty spectacularly. Sounds like drive flanges were the way to go for you. I carry a set of those too just in case.:)
     
  11. Jul 5, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
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    Got it out and started disassembling it.
    Didn't see anything out of whack, until I started finding metal flakes.

    [​IMG]

    So I pulled it the rest of the way apart but was still a little baffled by the metal flakes.

    [​IMG]

    Thought about it for a few minutes then found where they came from.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Not sure this is what was causing my problems but it is suspicious.
    Kind of looks like I need some buttons to keep the axle shafts from riding on the spider gear cross shafts but where in the world do I find those?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Jul 5, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
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    yep
    they are missing and you need them
    you're preloading the axle bearings against the cross shafts
    I have some used ones if you don't find any closer to home
     
  13. Jul 5, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
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    8,513
    you running a full float set-up ?
    they aren't used if you're FF
    you're supposed to remove them which is why I have a pair lying around
     
  14. Jul 5, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
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    Yes, full float.
    What do you think of the wear on those axle shafts though? Surely that's not right.
     
  15. Jul 5, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
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    yup, not right.
    all you did was change out the clutch pack, adding a couple extra ?
    everything was used previously, axles etc before the rebuild of the unit ?
    I'm stumped as I look at an exploded view of a unit in the book
    how can the shafts now be too long ?
    I'm stumped for now
     
  16. Jul 6, 2010
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
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    Something very weird is going on here as adding new or extra clutches will actually push the pinion shafts closer together and away from the axle shafts. Check out the locking hubs as well. If the axle shafts look like that I'd suspect some excessive wear to the hubs too.
    Was the only thing changed installing new clutches? Was the FF kit installed at the same time? Was a gear ratio change done? Any other changes made?
     
  17. Jul 6, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
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    Not necessarily a new problem. I just didn’t pay as much attention to it because I hadn’t found metal flakes in the clutch packs before.
    This was converted FF before I bought the Jeep and the gears are all the same.
    I had just put manual lockouts on it when I replaced the clutch packs in the Power Lok and had been running flanges for a while before then. It had manual lockouts on it before but I had several problems with the lockouts shaking mounting bolts loose and breaking them off in the hub. I mentioned this on another topic and its why I did the stud conversion making studs out of some grade 8 all-thread then bolting on the lockouts with Nylock nuts and star washers.
    Would it be wrong to run buttons on the ends of the axle shafts just to get the right spacing?
    When I put the flanges back on I did notice that the axle shaft wasn’t fully into the flange, which probably helped tear the flange up. Since I have a flange on order and am going to run those for now, maybe I need to put the flange on the axle shaft first then slide the axle shaft into the Power Lok side gears instead of the other way around.
     
  18. Jul 6, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
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    are you running out of splines on the drive flange end ?
    is the flange bottomed out on the splines, forcing the axle in ?
    how much of the shaft sticks out past the flange when installed ?
    the buttons would make it worse in my opinion
    you appear to be too long, not short.
     
  19. Jul 6, 2010
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2005
    Messages:
    817
    I will look to see if the flange is bottoming on the axle shaft splines.
    I do know that there isn’t any axle shaft sticking out past the flange though, its all on the inside of it.
    Maybe I’m not understanding where the buttons go, I assumed they went on the ends of the axle shafts at the differential.
     
  20. Jul 6, 2010
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
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    8,513
    they fit into the holes of the two crossshafts
    they're used for the axle to press against and set the axle bearing endplay for tapered axles.
    with a FF, the axle "floats", as the wheel bearings now carry the load.
    something is causing a tremendous amount of pressure on the axle to force it into the crossshafts.
    are you able to freely remove the axles without removing the spindles ?
     
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