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Playing the drivtrain inches game

Discussion in 'Flat Fender Tech' started by oldtime, Dec 23, 2008.

  1. Dec 23, 2008
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    I have not posted any questions here before so I hope these questions are O.K.

    Seeking the shortest possible hookup combination for use in an 80" wheelbased CJ-3A.
    Mandatory is the Jeep model 18 transfer case, either the small hole or large hole version.
    Mandatory is either a T-98 or the T-18 transmission being either Jeep or Ford versions.
    Mandatory is either the Dauntless 225 engine or the GM 181 Mercruiser.

    Does anyone know the exact lenght for either of these engines ?
    Measurements taken from bellhouse mount to the flat face of the fan pulley.

    Other than engine lenght the critical area here for loosing drivetrain inches is the bellhouse depth.
    I plan to install a NOS 10.5 Borg Beck three finger clutch for either engine, so the bellhouse diameter should not be a concern.

    Do some Buick Olds Pontiac (BOP) bellhouses have less depth than others ?
    What is the exact bellhouse depth originally used with T-86AA or T-14 Dauntless Jeeps ?
    I supoose the one piece 1971 Dauntless bellhouse was exactly 2.5 inches longer. Correct ?
    Did special order Dauntless 225 to Jeep T-18 use a special bellhouse ?

    What is the exact depth (mounting face to mounting face) of the standard GM 4 -11/16" index bellhouse ?

    So just what is the shallowest bellhouse I can mount up to ?
    For comparison... AA part # 712549 Buick to Ford T-18 bellhouse adapter is 6.625 deep.

    http://advanceadapters.com/product/2233/712583.html
     
  2. Dec 23, 2008
    Patrick

    Patrick Super Moderator Staff Member

    Los Alamos, NM
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    Nope.
     
  3. Dec 23, 2008
    jayhawkclint

    jayhawkclint ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Oklahoma City, USA
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  4. Dec 23, 2008
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Pretty sure it has a plate adapter and longer stickout T-18 though (ie longer than the Ford T-18 stickout, which is the right length for the GM bell). That would be similar to the 258/T18 combo, though it uses a T-14/15 bell. Have to be a different stickout though, since the T-14/15 bell is deeper than the GM/Chev/BOP, IIRC.

    AFAIK there's only one GM bell depth.
     
  5. Dec 23, 2008
    Zoomer

    Zoomer eJeeper (walking)

    Minnesota
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    So what parts were different between an OEM T-18 setup and an OEM T-14 setup on a Dauntless? Obviously the transmissions were different. Was the transmission case or input shaft on the tranny dauntless specific? Were the bell housings different? Was there an adapter to the bellhousing? Was there an adapter to the D-18? Inquiring minds want to know.

    On the AA site, it appears they sell bellhousings that adapt the 225/231 to the Ford T-18, the SM465 and the SM420.
     
  6. Dec 23, 2008
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
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    No.
    but the factory stock T-18 to V6 application did use adpaters on both ends; one for the T-18 to the bellhousing, the other for the T-18 to the D18 transfer case.
    As I recall, both adapters were about 1" thick maybe slightly over.
    I know a member who uses those adapters in his Jeep today.
    and..I don't recall..seems these adapters were used with the short V6 bell or the two piece set-up.
     
  7. Dec 23, 2008
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    I can only guess about the '71 T-18 CJ, since I have no personal experience and no parts book.

    Realize that the Jeep CJ-5 and Jeepster Commando T-18 has different gearing (4.02:1 1st, called "close ratio") from the truck T-18s (6.32:1 1st, called "wide ratio").

    Before 1971, the T-14 used a GM BOP bell and a plate adapter in front of the T-14. In '71 (the only year for it) there was a Jeep-sourced bellhousing that incorporates the adapter with the bell. Both setups have the same OAL (overall length).

    I predict the T-18 setup from 1971 uses a GM BOP bell with a plate adapter. To make the GM bell compatible with the Jeep T-18, you would need an adapter. This combination of the GM BOP bell, plate adapter and T-18 likely has a unique OAL, different from the Ford T-18 combo (shorter) and different from the Jeep 258/T-18 combo (longer).

    The 258 T-18 uses a plate adapter that is about 1" thick, and uses the T-14 bell (same as the T-15 bell, but we'll call it the T-14 bell). This bell is deeper than the GM BOP bell by about an inch.

    It's possible that the 258 T-18 input shaft and the 225 T-18 input shaft are the same length, but that would require that the 225 use a thicker (by about an inch) plate adapter than necessary. If so, then the 225 and 258 combos have the same OAL.

    All you need is the GM BOP bell to connect a 225/231 to a GM trans ie SM465 SM420. GM to GM bolts right up. I recall you don't need a special bell to adapt a Jeep T-18 or a Ford T-18 to a GM engine either. Novak has a page that discusses Ford-to-GM. The Jeep T-18 pattern is the same as Ford except for one bolt hole - you need to drill one hole in the bell, otherwise it's the same as Ford. You need to use the Ford input shaft though. Note that this only applies to the wide-ratio T-18 used in Fords and Jeep trucks and wagons. The CJ transmission has an input shaft that is specific to its ratios; no other T-18s used these gears and they do not exchange with the wide ratio transmissions.

    Clear as mud? :)
     
  8. Dec 23, 2008
    Patrick

    Patrick Super Moderator Staff Member

    Los Alamos, NM
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    The Jeep (CJ) T18 indeed has an adapter on both ends of the tranny. So in my case, I have the Factory (67) BOP bell, factory 3sp. "adapter", then the (71) factory T18 adapter, then T18, adapter (71), then transfer case... It's pretty long, for no more than it is, IYKWIM.
    Top is adapter, T18 adapter and T18 with adapter on the rear. Bottom is T14 with front adapter.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2008
  9. Dec 23, 2008
    Patrick

    Patrick Super Moderator Staff Member

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    T14, then T18
     
  10. Dec 23, 2008
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Wow you guys are really fast on response time.

    Yes I previously estimated (but have never seen) that the BOP bellhouse used with the T-86AA was likely used for rare Jeep T-18 applications
    with the addition of an adapter plate . Problem is I can't find any special part numbers for a T-18 bellhouse nor the adapter plate in the Jeep parts catalogs.

    And yes I realize that the 1971 T14A bellhouse must be 2-1/2" deeper than the previous because the T-14A input shaft (main drive gear) did not change part numbers.
    This unique bellhouse also mysteriously appears to be missing a parts number. Hmm...

    Yes jpflat2a it appears that the same cast iron transfer case adapter plate was used for all Jeep T-98 and T-18 applications.

    Thanks for your feedback Tim. I do understand the various T-18 gear ratio concerns. I am only interested in the wide ratio Borg Warners, T-18 and T-98.
    I don't want to go overkill with a severe duty syncro mesh 465. I'm building up a small light weight (yet more powerful ) jeep as was the original Willys tradition.

    To my knowledge all of the T-98 and T-18 input shafts lengths available from various applications should interchange between Ford and Jeep so long as the driven gear tooth count remains constant. That constant being 17 teeth for these low geared Borg Warners. So I am specifically looking into bellhouse depth dimensions at this point.
    Guys, throw me some actual bellhouse and engine lenght numbers if you can.

    I think but am not positive that the standard GM 4-11/16" bellhouse will be 6.25 " deep without an adapter plate.
    Of course the standard GM bellhouse should bolt directly to the GM 181 Mercruiser engine. I will refer to this GM industrial engine simply as 181 Mercruiser in the future.
    As you all know this engine is a bored and stroked version of the GM 153 Stovebolt engine.
    It up for my serious consideration because it is lighter in physical weight than the Dauntless 225 yet produces 140 hp without modification.
    It weighs only 350 lbs as the Dauntless is I believe 414 lbs. I think this little engine may be the hot ticket !

    Thanks for the pic Patrick. I plan to eliminate the front adapter by use of a shortened main drive gear.
     
  11. Dec 23, 2008
    Patrick

    Patrick Super Moderator Staff Member

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    The '71 bell is deeper only because it didn't use the adapter, it was all cast as one unit.
     
  12. Dec 25, 2008
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    If you do want to give thought to the SM465 route I can measure things for you - I did that with the AA BH and 1" Adaptor to get me the shortest, yet strongest drive train I could build. The WR T18 setups are real hard to find here and the confusion on the various T18 parts drove me in that direction.

    'Course now I am building a T18 setup in my buddies Commando, but then length is not an issue.
     
  13. Dec 25, 2008
    Mike C

    Mike C Member

    Austin, TX
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    I'm sill contemplating the 3.0 Merc for my A1. I have an '81 model on the stand in the garage, and I bought a Clifford 153 intake. BUT, the intake doesn't quite align with all the intake ports, and I may have to TIG it, grind it, and port match. And I haven't had much luck sourcing an exhaust manifold. Clifford sells a header, but it's kinda' high. I'm looking for a possible 153 donor and maybe swapping the head and exhaust manifold and using my Clifford intake with a 500 cfm Edelbrock 4 barrell. I'll go with a 465 since I already have it along with the larger pilot bellhousing.

    One drawback to the V6 is the BOP bellhousing using the smaller pilot hole, meaning the 420 bolts up, but not the 465.

    Other than that, the V6 seems to be the easier swap. I still like the Merc and will continue looking for parts, but the Dauntless SM420 needs just the Advance Adapters adapter and is real close in length to the 465 with the 1" adapter.

    In looking at the 2, the V6 seems to be the easier and cheaper. But I haven't ruled out buying the 3.0 new or trying to get used exhuast from a forklift or welder. But the boat motor seems to have a better power spread than the industrial version. Google and you can find .pdf on both.
     
  14. Dec 25, 2008
    windyhill

    windyhill Sponsor

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    Running a Dana 18, (Ford) T18, buick 225, combo in my 3b and I love it!!! Went with Novak's adapter (only 1" thick) used a stock buick bellhousing and machined the hole bigger to fit the ford t18. Even found a stock clutch set up that had the right clutch and pressure plate at my local auto parts store (I think the application was for a late 70's cj with a t-18? ford splines on clutch and bolted up to buick) did have to get a different throw out bearing, but Novak had that as well. This really is a great combo. I'm putting in a sm465 in my cj6 project now, and well I'm not done at this point yet I think the t-18 was an easier conversion. smaller and lighter as well. If you havn't yet, go on Novaks site and check it out, alot of great stuff there!
     
  15. Dec 26, 2008
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Yeah Mike,

    I just saw one of those Clifford 153 manifolds sell on ebay. It sold for around $ 175.00.
    Too bad the thing does not readily fit onto your 181 Mercriser.
    I did not bid on it because it uses more carburetor than I want to install.(four barrel)
    I would probably run a two barrel Rochester on a Mercruiser 181 but have not really looked into that yet.
    At this point of Jeep design I'm still more concerned with short bellhouses and the engine lenghts.
    I know either engine Buick V-6 or Mercruiser 181 will fit the engine compartment O.K., but I wanna keep as much rear propeller shaft lenght as I can.

    Yeah Warlock ,
    There sure is a lot to consider with all the T-18 variables Judging from physical mass alone the Synchro Mesh 465 is one massive beast !
    I used to run the smaller SM 420 in a two ton Chevy dump truck.
    It would easily grunt down to start a 16 ton load of sand from an uphill deadstop.Oh yeah split differentials helped out too.

    Windyhill,
    I haven't give up on the Daunless yet. I imajine your bolted straight into the Buick bellhouse with that short Ford maindrive gear (input) ?
    Only thing for me is I would prefer to use the Jeep T-18 bolt pattern if that is practicle.
    I already have a couple complete NOS Borg Beck setups that should basically fit either engine I decide on.
    Would be forced to go with a Ford driven disk if I use a Ford T-18 maindrive.
    Thats just one more reason to try and shorten a Jeep T-18 so I can use my NOS Borg Beck driven disk with it's 1-1/8" ten splines.
    It's loaded with genuine asbestos so im holding my breath while hoping I can use it !
     
  16. Dec 26, 2008
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    You can see some of my pics at my home page not all there as I just don't have time to keep it up to date. Just to give you an idea, and I can measure things for you if you want.
     
  17. Dec 27, 2008
    oldtime

    oldtime oldtime

    St. Charles,...
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    Hey Mike C,
    I saw a really nice 1986 Mercruiser 181 sell the other day on ebay for cheap. I would have bought that but I was leary about getting a 1986 or later engine.
    My concern was that 1986 and later GM engines would be externally balanced. That means I might have a hard time bolting a decent flywheel onto crankshaft.
    I imajine one would need to find a GM 153 Stovebolt engine for many of the automotive parts including the flywheel, bellhousing, exhaust and intake manifolds.
    Say could you measure your 181 front to rear ? I want to know just how long this engine is from rear of block (bellhouse) to the flat face of the fan pulley.

    Warloch,
    If you wanna do me a favor measure me up the exact lenght of a 231 and also a 225 V-6 :v6:. I don't have one to measure my garage is currently full of F-134's:)
    I know its approxamately 23" but would like to know the exact lenght from the rear of block to the flat of the fan pulley.

    Thanks in advance guys !
     
  18. Dec 27, 2008
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Yes and no. In the T-18's and T-98's there are two sizes of blocking rings used, a thick, and a thin. Depending on which main drive gear you use and the resulting blocking ring required, you must use the matching 3/4 synchronizer assembly and corresponding 3rd gear. If you don't you won't be able to assemble it as the notches in the blocking ring is a different width where the keys index or if it will fit then you could have hard shifting due to the blocking ring being allowed to rotate too far in the synchronizer assembly depending on which combination of parts are used.
     
  19. Dec 28, 2008
    Mike C

    Mike C Member

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    I'll measure the motor today. A donor 153 seems the way to do this swap. You get intake, exhuast, carburetion . You also get a rear sump pan. The 153 were used in postal jeeps from somewhere around 67-71. Not sure exactly, but it's another source other than a Nova. The 68 Nova seems the best source, but the rarest of applications.
     
  20. Dec 28, 2008
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

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    Will do tomorrow after work - got new inlaws in town right now.
     
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