ODD BALL 225 '64...Does it have diff. valves?

Stopped by my machinist who is doing the rebuild on my '64 225 V6 and he said '64 was an odd ball year and that the valves are different diameter than the jeep years. Anyone hear of this before? Said he couldn't get the same size valves.

 

from what my PAW says, i dunno if he is correct. lemme go back and check it tonight to be sure. he might be talking about the odd fire in general.

 

Intakes were the same at 1.625
Exhaust was measured at 1.311

 

Engine year is correct. Grandfather put in the engine told me it was a '64. The machine shop ran the casting numbers for the rebuild also and said it was a '64. Compared the block casting #s to the chart and it also points to the same. This engine was not original in my '59cj5. I thought all 225's were the same entirely....I guess not. Pat Ganahl doesn't mention this difference either. Was wondering if anyone else has experience with this?

 

I hate to say this but you may have a 1964 225 but I would be willing to bet that all 225's used the same size intake and exhaust valves and that he is pulling your leg or talkin sh#$. Most guys in auto machines shops are to young to have even seen a 225 and know what it is right off the bat let alone tell you that 64 was an oddball year and they had smaller or different valves. Most parts centers haven't got a clue about these motors let alone machine experience with them consdiering the last ones built were 30 years ago and they were marine motors.

 

Maybe I will give Kenne Bell a call. I know Jim Bell knows his stuff.
I don't think they would be pulling my leg. This guy has been around a long time and knows his stuff. I checked the 198 specs and the exhaust valve is 1.3125. Pretty close to the 1.311 that the machine shop measured. I wonder if they didn't change the exhuast valve from the 198to 225 transition in '64.

 

x2 :iagree:
Is yours a 1-bbl?

 

Spoke with Jim Bell and TAperformance today and indeed the '64 buick 225 has smaller exhuast valves than the '65--71 years. The block and the heads are the same except for the exhaust valve diameter. The old exhaust valve is shorter and uses longer push rods as well as having a smaller diameter head. Years '65 to 71 uses a longer valve and shorter push rod along with a diameter that is listed in the FSM. So the moral to this story is rebuilding a '64 225 costs more

Yes mine was a 1bbl until I fuel injected it

 

So I guess my spare engine out of a '63 or '64 Olds F83 will have the smaller valves and other different parts. Darn! I thought they'd be the same.

 

guess keiser did that when they bought it from buick..? weird. interesting...guess i owe a machinist an appology.

note- i might have a set of 231 OF heads with new rocker assembly and brand new push rods for sale (price of new valve assembly, push rods and shipping) depending on what TA performance tells me..=)


update-i spoke with TA Performance and they said the EF and Of parts will interchange as long as you match the water passages and respect the rockers/valves/puch rods. they said the intake i have prolly wont line up with the EF heads, but they never tried it so he wasnt for sure. i think i might break out a gasket and measure how far off it actually is and see if itll be ok to port. if so, i might run the EF heads...

 

Very cool info. So I guess that my spare pre-Dauntless 225 heads won't work on a Dauntless block?

 

"So I guess my spare engine out of a '63 or '64 Olds F83 will have the smaller valves and other different parts. Darn! I thought they'd be the same."

Everthing in the '64 225 is exactly the same as the dauntless except for the different valves and pushrods. Then buick changed the heads with the OF 231.

When you rebuild you have to have the exhuast seat enlarged and go with the '65 and later valves and pushrods.

 

i called and spoke with TA Performance and they said the even fire heads will work on the odd fire if you match the intake runners. i looked last night and the only difference between them besides the size the intake runners is the egr passages. on our old stuff, we dont use that i dont think. the intake that i have will need to be ported to match the larger runners, but the width on the intake is wider for some reason than stock heads so they will need to be touched up. other than that, from what i have seen, they can be mixed and matched with respect to valves and valve trane and push rods. that opens up a whole new world of possibilities.
i am putting the EF heads on my OF for an experiment...will post results and pics soon.

 

I thought the water passages on the even-fire heads were totally different than the odd-fire...but I've also been told that the valve covers are different and that isn't always true so maybe there are alot of different odd-fire and even-fire configurations of heads. Also I thought that the even-fire heads had taller intake runners, not wider...thats why they breath so much better.

 

point 1- you are correct on the "taller" intake, therefore they got the name "tall port" heads. but the intake runners are on the top of the head, not by the block side. so, if you match your intake runners (tall port to tall port, or grind low port heads to match tall port) you can stick the heads on and use the even fire intake. but if you want to mix them, you have to grind out the intake runner. the water jackets are in the front and back and are the same. the holes in the newer heads that i was worried about are exhaust ports for EGR stuff which we (i say we..) arent using. the main thing to match are push rods to style head and rocker assmbly. if you want to run an even fire head, use all even fire stuff from the same year. just match your intake runner with the intake manifold.
point 2- the wider part i was refering too was on the after factory intake i bought. it is slightly wider than either OF or EF heads and shorter than the EF (it was designed for the OF). but, since it isnt the same, itll induce drag. so, me personally, i have to grind my heads to match this. you guys who have EF intakes, or want to run the after factory EF intakes, might need to touch it up, or might not.
if you decide to run the EF heads, itll give you a much better selection in after fac intakes and 4bbls. plus, about 30% better flow (or so...i know it was about 1/2 inch difference between the 2 plus a better shaped exhaust.)
also, i think the cc in the combustion chamber is alittle less on the EF heads, therefore my 9.6:1 pistons might fall to 9.3ish (yay!).
i am going to clean up the casting in the intake runners, clean up the chamber and bore out the exhaust after this weekend (and i get my camera from my moms this weekend along with my air compressor. so, if it still works, pics coming for the site...before and after. maybe even a video of me grinding/firing it up..=)
i am getting excited.
oh..1 note though. im not responsible for this until i get it all together and fired up. once i do, i will take responsibility for bad info. but from my measurements, talking to TA performance, my other engine builder friend and a few other peeps, its a plug and play thing. also on the buick history page, most of the changes were to the block (larger rods, bigger cam bearrings etc.). we will find out.

 

If the heads cc less (smaller combustion chambers) your compression should rise, not fall. Generally this is a good thing unless you end up with pre-ignition pinging. Pre-ignition is greatly infuenced by combustion chamber shape and design. Chambers with high quench generally are less likely to ping and you can therefore run higher compression. Usually higher compression = higher horsepower. Are the chamber shapes the same between the heads? Are you planning to run a turbo, in which case you want lower compression? What kind of pistons are you running, dished or flat top?

Lot's of good info here. It's nice to see someone with firsthand knowledge of mixing the heads / blocks. Keep the info coming....

 

i understand this, i mistyped the info. the cc's on the OF are smaller, there is a larger combustion chamber on the EF head. i have the garrett turbo setup, but i am not going to run it. right now, i have speed pro 9.6:1 (@ .030) hyper pistons. comp 260H. there is a notch on the OF heads in the combustion chamber that will eat up a cc or 2 which is not on the EF heads, which means less rough/sharp edges for lower cyl temp (no premature detonation). i have WAY too much compression for a turbo right now. i am just trying to make a street engine with descent power for my jeep. i was building a rock crawler, but i am moving to florida and i havent seen too many mountains there (maybe they added some since i lived there 5 years ago...) =)
oooo rawk crawling space mountain...wonder if disney would get upset? we could make a new attraction..."see if rowdy can make it this time..get your tickets today"..lol