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Megasquirt Build

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by termin8ed, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. Sep 27, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    **split this off from Mike's TBI build thread**


    What version of mega squirt are you guys using. I see mike has the version 2. Any plusses from 1 to 2 other than pricing?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2015
  2. Sep 27, 2015
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    MS1 is a much simpler board. MS2 has more features.

    MS1 started out as a fuel-only project. It has a more basic CPU, but can be upgraded to ignition control using the "MSExtra" software.

    There is a page that compares the "traditional" Megssquirt versions - http://www.msextra.com/product-range/traditional-megasquirt/ - you can read until your interest or time runs out.
     
  3. Sep 27, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    Ok, looks like the proccessor for the megasquirt 1 is obsolete and will no longer be made.
    So for the extra $60 bucks think ill go for the 2 kit
     
  4. Sep 27, 2015
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    Brian what ya gonna put it on?
    My version is technically not supported anymore but the board is. The board is a version 2 with minor mods for the mini megasquirt housing, it was actually setup for motorcycles and such that needed complete waterproofing. My cables are totally different due to the amp seal and such.
     
  5. Sep 27, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    Not sure where you saw that. I see several locations where MS-1 is for sale. Actually MS-1 is the basis for MS-2. Try for example www.diyautotune.com
     
  6. Sep 28, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    The post tim mentioned says the cpu is no longer being made. When supplies run out thats it.
    I have to do some more looking around but will probably go with one of the megasquirt 2 versions

    Its going on my :v6:

    Only need the fuel control but dont want to end up with something you cant find parts for later
     
  7. Sep 28, 2015
    HerkEng

    HerkEng New Member

    Boise, ID
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  8. Sep 28, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    We've been down that road before.
    How huch does someone charge to reprogram a gm pcm. How much is the pcm even one from a junkyard?

    I think most of us are planning to use gm sensors and parts so the only variable is the pcm

    If the pcm goes bad your screwed pretty much. At least with the megasquirt you built it and can rebuild it. Once you have the tune program its on your laptop/computer. Your the one that can te learn the pcm..
     
  9. Sep 28, 2015
    HerkEng

    HerkEng New Member

    Boise, ID
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    I've got less than $200 in my whole setup so far, that includes a TB, ECM, 2 harnesses, 2 HEI distributors (so I can build a 7-pin Buick V8 dist which GM never did), TB rebuild kit, new O2, knock and coolant sensors, fuel pump, as well as ZIF socket and new chip to make the ECU easily programmable.

    In the highly unlikely event that the ECU fails (they're quite reliable) another one is as easy as finding a 88-92 chevy truck in a junkyard, or a trip to the local parts store. Where do you get parts for a MS in a small town on a Sunday afternoon?

    The MS is a great system, and if I was doing an L67 swap into a CJ2A or some such thing it would be my first choice. I just wanted OEM reliability for the truck, and knew somebody parting a 90 5.7L GMC.
     
  10. Sep 28, 2015
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    GM did use a 7 pin Buick V-8 Distributor. I've had a couple, although I will agree not common. Another issue is the fuel mapping for the '88-'92 TBI for a 5.7l, or even a 5.0 could work for a Buick V-8 like you describe, would be waaaaayyyy off for a Buick V-6. Especially an oddfire V-6. Even a 4.3 V-6 would be quite far off and outside reliable parameters for fuel metering if using a 225 or 231 V-6. You could change the injectors to a lower pounds per hour rating but the fuel mapping in the pcm would still be off. That's where systems like Howell, Megasquirt, etc. shine. They can be mapped to match the engines needs. The MS is a great system as they can be built/tuned by the owners with just a little research and experimentation.
     
  11. Sep 29, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    As I read the many posts here, I am beginning to think many do not realize just how tunable GM OBD1 systems are . I agree with nickmil in that systems like MS do shine and are a good option. But with that said, they do not out shine a GM OBD1 ECM. Tuning a GM OBD1 ECM is not any more difficult than the MS unit. At least I don't believe to be.
     
  12. Sep 29, 2015
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    What about oddfire mapping. The stock gm unit does not recognize the oddfire tach signal without having a wheel mounted on the crank set up for even order signals. The megasquirt doesn't care. As far as getting a controller on Sunday forget that for the gm also as most shop order them next day. Just build a spare ms controller and store it away, there not that expensive to build.
     
  13. Sep 29, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    Mike, I believe you misunderstood what I said. First, the GM ECM is not the do all, end all unit for all applications. What I said is from reading various posts (which covers all applications where EFI is being considered), some appear to believe the GM ECM's are not easily tuned. They are very tunable. Secondly, you are correct. A trigger signal is needed and in the case of the oddfire, MS lends itself very well to that application. With either system though, I believe fueling will be batch fire and mapping the fuel table would be the same for both systems.. I haven't looked at the MS system in quite a while so I don't remember exactly how their system addresses the odd fire. You are also correct in that in most cases, a person will be waiting until the next day to get the replacement GM ECM from a parts store.
     
  14. Sep 30, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    Just out of curiosity because i havent gotten far enough to look into programing a gm pcm.
    What is involved? Is there a way for me to plug in a laptop and tune it myself? Program used?
    Or do you need to get a programed chip from someone?
     
  15. Sep 30, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    What is involved? Not to be a wise guy, but a lot of reading. Of course this applies to which ever route you decide to go. If your new, develop a network to help you through the process. This could be others you know who understand the process of tuning and/or web sites/forums. Look at the MS manual. It explains the process of tuning well. Look at gearhead-efi where you can find a wealth of information and help. Look at moates.net support for more info.

    You connect your laptop to the ALDL connector to monitor the engine. With tuning the ODB1 ECM you also need a chip and a device that allows you to burn your program to the chip which you install into the ecm. The best program to use is TunerPro. Look up their web site and download the latest version. It's free although those you use it make the donation. Either way it functions the same.

    You do not need to get a programed chip although this can help. There are several tuners out their. Choosing one wisely can speed up the process and help you learn how to tune.
     
  16. Oct 5, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Megasquirt Product Comparison
    Found this link. Gives a good side by side comparison for the different models of megasquirt.

    From what I've seen also on the 1st gen chips going out of production, looks like the daughter board cpu for the ms2 will work for the ms1. Get some extra upgrades along with it as well.

    about half way down that link I posted it shows oddfire wheel decoder and oddfire distributor. Does the ms1 require a tone wheel for pulses, meaning it can't use the points from the oddfire distributor?
     
  17. Oct 5, 2015
    termin8ed

    termin8ed I didn't do it Staff Member

    Mason, MI
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    I guess this is what I was trying to get at. everybody so far touting the gm ecu system has failed to post any prices on what the ecu programming cost. guy at work filled me in a little about the process. You have to buy a programmer to burn the chip. From the little I saw online they go from $80 up to couple hundred. Chips can be reprogrammed.

    so if you buy a programmer and an ecu which is $70-100 range depending on where you can get it from its pretty close to the base ms system. A little cheaper depending on what programmer you get yes.

    The reason I'm going with the ms system is because it has the oddfire ability, and I just like to build stuff like this.
     
  18. Oct 6, 2015
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    I think you are pretty close on your estimates and all in all have a good plan. You could get an ecm at the pick and pull for less but that's a moot point. I'm guessing you will be there though to get a few things such as a throttle body. While there try to get a wiring harness with as many of the connectors as you can. You will be connecting to the injectors, TPS and IAC on the throttle body, an engine temp sensor, o2 sensor and possibly inlet air temp. MS uses it's own map sensor.
     
  19. Oct 9, 2015
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Re: TBI thoughts!

    A typical unit is the AutoProm by Moates - http://www.moates.net/apu1-autoprom-package-usb-version-p-54.html

    The problem with the Megasquirt 1 is it's based on the Motorola 68HC908 microprocessor (cpu) which is a fairly old 8-bit cpu in the 6808 family. This architecture dates back to the Intel 8080 and Zilog Z80 days. It's cheap and does a lot, but it's no longer profitable to make it. MS1 can be upgraded with new software - MS Extra - to support ignition control and some other features not present in the original MS1 software.

    Megasquirt 2 is a daughter board that plugs in to the same socket as used by the 68HC908. This 68HC12 cpu has more onboard memory and a true 16 bit data bus, and like the 68HC908 an onboard ADC. Other than availability, its main advantage is more memory space that allows a larger and more finely resolved lookup tables. It also supports spark control natively, though this will not be a factor with the odd-fire engine.

    Megasquirt 3 is a newer cpu upgrade resident on a different plug-in daughter board. Mostly you would choose this option if you wanted to run sequential multiport injection.

    You have the choice of three processors, and two boards. The boards are versions 2.2 and 3.0.
    2.2 has the least features, and will support MS1 or MS2.
    3.0 is the full-featured board, and can be used with MS1, MS2 or MS3.

    There is also 3.57 - fully assembled - and MicroSquirt, which is a miniaturized water-resistant version which can be turned into a transmission controller.

    Generally, the newer or higher the level, the mre the price increases. MS1/2.2 kit is $169, while MS3/3.0 kit is $385.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
  20. Oct 9, 2015
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Just a comment -

    If you wanted to really DIY this, you could buy a HCS12 evaluation module and completely roll your own. You would have to code all the control software, but the basic capability is there. This is basically the same stuff as the MS2, in a more "raw" form.

    [​IMG]

    EDIT - apparently the Softec board is not current, but there are plenty of stand-alone microcontroller boards out there that would work. It would not have to use the 68HC12 instruction set to work as an engine controller.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
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