1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

Lost 3rd Gear? T-14

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Buildflycrash, Mar 10, 2020.

  1. Mar 11, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    If you were going to do that, wouldn't it be more durable if you used a torch and brazing rod?
     
  2. Mar 11, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2014
    Messages:
    1,501
    I'm a simple man...... but I like your style......
     
    Fireball likes this.
  3. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    That would definitely work to at least determine if the fork/pad is the problem.
     
  4. Mar 12, 2020
    TIm E

    TIm E Member 2019 Sponsor

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    I'd be surprised if the coating on the shift fork is the culprit, most likely a symptom of a bigger problem (if even related). Good advice so far to check for any play between the input and main shaft, manually move the shift collars into and out of gear; also check the function of the shift tower on the bench, shifting easily, forks making full throw, etc.

    The fork coating is mostly to prevent the shifter from rattling while you drive, but also helps smooth the shifts slightly. As noted, the replacement forks don't even have the coating. I looked into this at one time and it is some kind of heat/chemical bonding process they use at the factory to apply that coating. The best alternative I could come up with was JB Weld mixed about 50/50 with Teflon powder. I did some tests and on properly prepared metal (scuffed and cleaned), the JB Weld had a very strong bond and the Teflon made for a nice durable low-friction surface.
     
    dane71 and Buildflycrash like this.
  5. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    I've never been into a transmission so I'm a bit of disadvantage. I did slide the collar in and out of gear without much trouble. Here is a better closeup of the area...

    [​IMG]


    I also moved the gears around by rolling the Jeep while in gear. Tell me the teeth are supposed to be cut from this small section of this gear....

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  6. Mar 12, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Volvophilic

    Post Falls, ID
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    4,181
    They are. It’s how the main drive gear passes the cluster gear upon removal.
     
  7. Mar 12, 2020
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,552
    I'm seeing too much of the tapered "cone" of the input shaft. The brass blocking ring should be riding closer to the dog spurs (those small cut teeth). This leads me to believe there is too much play in either the mainshaft, or input shaft (main drive) endfloat. I would first be looking at the bearing on the input shaft.
    -Donny
     
    Walt Couch and ITLKSEZ like this.
  8. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    So "looking at" is removing the transmission and starting to take it apart???
     
  9. Mar 12, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Volvophilic

    Post Falls, ID
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
    Messages:
    4,181
    Grab the toothed ring that you asked about and pull it rearward towards the t-case. See if it has F/R play.
     
  10. Mar 12, 2020
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    11,571
    I can't tell from the pic but it looks like the front oil slinger between the input gear and input bearing is missing. I agree, the spacing between the blockiing ring surface on the input is way too far away from the 2/3 synchronizer assembly.
     
  11. Mar 12, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,876
    So they rest of us can learn...are you referring to the spacing in this zone?
    [​IMG]
     
    Buildflycrash likes this.
  12. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    So i still don't really know what any of this means. :confused: I'll have to dig around in there some more with a couple of big hammers :shock: and report back.

    Easy enough and cant hurt to start with the JB weld on the fork. If that fails I have a t18 four speed I was saving for my 3B project. I have a Master rebuild kit for it as well. Another big Creep!! :cool:
     
  13. Mar 12, 2020
    45es

    45es Member 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Messages:
    712
    A waste of time without addressing the item noted by both Keys5a and nickmil.
     
    timgr likes this.
  14. Mar 12, 2020
    TIm E

    TIm E Member 2019 Sponsor

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Messages:
    647

    Bingo James. We should not be seeing the shiny tapered cone the blocking ring rides on. 45es is also right (along with the handful of others), you have a bigger isssue to address here Scott. I believe your input shaft has drifted forward. Typically, the oil slinger that sits right in front of that input shaft gear is about even with the inside surface of the case. If the gear or oil slinger is in the front bore of the case, it is likely too far forward.

    The front input bearing is held in place by the large outer snap ring being held up against the front face of the case by the bearing retainer housing. Snap ring broken or missing, bearing retainer housing loose, bearing retainer housing gasket too thick are all possibilities. Same for the rear mainshaft bearing, large outer snap ring seated against the rear transmission housing face by the rear bearing retainer. Either one of these at the front or back of the transmission will allow one or both of the shafts to drift away from each other and create too big of a gap there where you are seeing the cone surface.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  15. Mar 12, 2020
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    11,571
    Yes.
     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  16. Mar 12, 2020
    timgr

    timgr Jeepin' Nerd 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2003
    Messages:
    20,937
    Yes, the brass blocking ring should not pull away from the shiny tapered area on the input shaft like that. This is a serious problem, and explains why it won't shift. Probably should have said this first, but there's not much you can do to these transmissions without bringing them to the bench for disassembly. Taking the top off and looking is just looking, not fixing. You should assume that if the problem is not in the shift top, the transmission has to come out. May as well get to it and get a better idea of what's happening. As mentioned, don't waste your time on the shift fork.

    Front main bearing would be the simplest explanation, but they are typically noisy before they fail. Regardless, it has to come out and come apart.

    Sorry if I'm piling on! :coffee:
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash and FinoCJ like this.
  17. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    No problem Tim I'm sure you're right! I'm also sure Tim E needs a Florida Vacation and some more rebuilding experience. We have plenty of room and the pool is getting warmer every day.

    My thinking right now is to park the jeep for a couple weeks, rebuild the t-18 and do the needed mods to get that in my CJ5. The 3B is on hold anyway for the Super Beetle project that is taking up the garage now. I'll just have to find another 4 speed t18 sometime in the next year or so.

    Next question is how will the t18 bolt to my Dana 18 TC? I have an AMC20 TC that came with it but that is center drive shaft. Creeping along!!
     
  18. Mar 12, 2020
    TIm E

    TIm E Member 2019 Sponsor

    NW Arkansas
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2017
    Messages:
    647
    Wish I had a better picture, but perhaps this helps. This will show you the proper gap (or lack thereof) around that blocking ring/cone, you can also see the oil slinger is just inside the case...AND, perhaps a fairly significant clue: The front bearing retainer bolts in my pic are original and you can clearly see a portion of the threads are visible on the inside of the case (circled in red). While the threaded hole is visible in your pics, the bolt threads are not?? I am wondering if your front bearing retainer is maybe loose.

    Either way, I am always up for some cold snacks by the pool! :beer:

     
    FinoCJ likes this.
  19. Mar 12, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member 2020 Sponsor

    Denver, CO
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,876
    Recognize that swapping a t18 in for the t14 is not a bolt in type swap...you will have some mods. Also, the T14 is a 10spline output, and the T18 is a 6 spline output. So the drive gear (or barrel gear if you have an OD) that is on the rear of the T14 transmission and drives the D18 will not work as is. If you decide to go this route, maybe you already have the appropriate drive gear on the back of your D18 (someone else will have to help you with that). You will also need to modify your bellhousing (drill and tap new mounting holes) or buy an adapter from Novak or AA that will go between the bell and T18. If you truly have a T18 from a cj with a D20 (texas pattern) - then no adapter needed there. I think most Ford T18s need an adapter to the D18. You will also have some other mods, like floorpans and cross-member. I run the T14 in mine - its not perfect - but with low enough axle gearing (4.88 in mine) and Tera low gears in the D18 (3.15) - it hasn't been a huge issue. It took me a few days to rebuild with a kit from Novak - its not that expensive and should give lots of years of good service. For me, a swap like this was lots of money for rebuild kit, adapters, and even more of an issue - lots of time. for a T14, plan one day to remove, one day to disassemble, 2 days to reassemble, one day to re-install, plus 1-2 days for all that goes wrong that you don't plan for. Back in a driving in a week for a couple hundred dollars (plus clutch etc if you are that far in). T18 swap is closer to $800 with needed adapters etc, and months(?) of work for modifications? You will also have some pilot bushing and clutch changes that are needed with T18 (I think).
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  20. Mar 12, 2020
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash Member 2020 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
    Messages:
    1,248
    I have the needed adapters for the clutch and bell-housing, I just didn't know if I was "bolt in" to the TC. CREEPING. Maybe I'll rebuild it all (have the kits) and also the Centered rear axle. More Creeping.

    Or Just bring the whole jeep to the transmission shop and pick it up in 3 days. !!$$Ouch$$!!
     

Share This Page

New Posts