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If Not A Bridgeport.......

Discussion in 'The Tool Shed' started by wheelie, Jul 2, 2016.

  1. Jul 2, 2016
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

    York, PA
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    ..........what other brand of mill then?

    Been thinking of getting myself a mill. I want to learn metal working. I want to make stuff. And I don't want to depend on other people to do this stuff for me then get mad at them if it isn't right. I'd rathe r get mad at me and call it a learning experience.

    So, I've been watching videos on milling machines. Learning some terms. What to look for when buying used. How to.....etc., etc.

    Not looking to buy for a while so I have lots of time to look. Finding Bridgeports from like 1500.00 on up. Nothing really under 2000 on eBay (just using it as price reference). So, while I may prefer a Bridgeport brand machine for several reasons, what other quality brands should or could I be considering?

    As a note, I fully understand that things like included tooling, phase converters, DRO, etc., etc., will affect the pricing. I'm just dippin' my line here, trying to get in the ball park.
     
  2. Jul 2, 2016
    Unkel Dale

    Unkel Dale delivery on my Jeep from Ft. Campbell, Ky.

    Pittsburgh, Pa.
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    Cincinnati, brown and oliver, Milwaukee, Sharp
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
  3. Jul 2, 2016
    47v6

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    Bridgeport clone from taiwan is your best bet. The parts should interchange with bridgeport when you need to replace or buy tooling. Bridgeports haven't really been made in the USA for a long time as I have read. Look to C/L. Thats where i got mine.

    Drive up to Loyalsock PA to the Grizzly outlet/wharehouse and play with the ones they have there on the floor. They have different models from mill/drill/lathe bench top to floor models there that you can see what you like about lower end vs more better:) ones. The stuff made in taiwan is generally of very good quality if you buy something from the last 30 years or so.

    You have to be careful about Tree and Browne and sharpe and other models that they don't use some proprietary collets. This is where bridgeport stuff rules. You can buy cheap stuff like tooling from Shars or Enco and its going to probably be ok to get you into learning how to do stuff for hobby purposes at a budget price.

    My boss bought a combo lathe/mill unit. It will do both things ok and that might be all you need. It was made in china and he had no idea how to use it so he basically wrecked it, but it wasn't the machines fault.

    There are several messagboards for machinists out there that will provide a whole lot of info. I made great use of them.
     
  4. Jul 2, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Stay with a Bridgeport if you can.........plenty out there used and reasonably priced , look for ones that have tooling that can be bought along with it............support and parts for these American Made Mills up until 2004 will be available for many decades...........and they hold there value far better than any other Mill on the market.
     
  5. Jul 2, 2016
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

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    Probably gonna stay away from a bench top model. I was talking to the guy who is setting up my axle (NOT the guy who machined my knuckles which is why I want to start doing this stuff myself.......but that's another story). He's been a machinist for decades and owns his own shop. Been building engines forever. Very knowledgable. He sort of frowned on the idea of a bench top model and thinks I can find a used floor model for the price of a new bench top and it will be way better, last longer, even one that's not that great.

    The collets is another question, as Terry alluded to. I've seen some that use like a NMRT 30, or 40, or 50 ( I know it's not NMRT, can't recall the letters in front of the numbers right now). Apparently, this stuff is available, mostly used, on epay. Not sure how I feel about that. The R8 collets seem to be the standard of the industry. Am I off base here?

    I'd like to go Bridgeport, if I can afford it. I prefer to buy tools once and, if I'm spending that much cash, I want to get something good. Not that others are not. If a good other brand comes up, I want to know what to consider and what to avoid. I'd really like to stay under the 1500.00 range. This will be a hard enough sell to the Mrs. 2k, 2500 would really be cringe-worthy.
     
  6. Jul 2, 2016
    47v6

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    Ok,
    My Bridgeport clone is a total POS. It is NOT variable speed, has lash in the feed screws and the power down feed doesnt work. Pulley has some chips in it like soemoe threw some bolts into it while running. The quill bearings make noise. I paid 750 for it with a pile of tooling. The good thing is that even though its a clone, the bridgeport replacement parts will fit and work correctly. I could even buy a variable speed head and just bolt it on. For what I do its fine as is. It is full size.

    R8 collets are everywhere. The cheap collets work as good as the most expensive ones for hobby use. Where tooling make a difference is in the cutting tools you buy. Better quality is a better finish from my experience. You dont need to buy a full set if you dont want to, just the size you're using for end mills.

    They are almost all 3 phase, so make a phase converter or get an electronic inverter that can also double as a speed controller. I happen to have 3 stationary 3 phase tools so I made a radial phase converter out of an old 7.5 3 phase motor and a static phase converter to start it. Surplus junk in my shop. You can even make those yourself out of capacitors or even pull start it like a lawnmower. Even can use a 110 motor to spin it up if you're lazy and have it drop out when the generator motor is going.

    You're going to see really old bridge ports with round rams. Don't buy one of those. They are too old.

    Ideally you want a Bridgeport with a variable speed head, one shot lube, DRO and lots of tooling. The person selling will also have to help in loading and you will need a trailer for sure.
     
  7. Jul 2, 2016
    Twin2

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    Like some of ads on CL say : ASK your wife first . oh wait that might be motorcycles
     
  8. Jul 2, 2016
    47v6

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    I stopped asking. Just showed up with Mine(y) mad at me for a little bit, but its easier to ask for forgiveness than to drag it out.

    "Look at that, aint it pretty"?:D Duck!
     
  9. Jul 2, 2016
    Admiral Cray

    Admiral Cray I want to do this again.. Staff Member

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    I got my Kent for 1500. There out there but hard to find. Mine made tow rings for Boeing. The company was upgrading to CNC and the mill had to go.

    I saw it on CL with two other smaller mills both small ones were gone when I called. Took a big trailer and a fork lift to move it here.
     
  10. Jul 2, 2016
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    I'm actually have a Bridgeport J head for sale, but these things weigh around 2300 lbs, so transportation is a big factor. The old round ram models were prior to around 1956, so there are lots of newer models available that ride on ways/gibs. They are much more stable. The smaller M head Bridgeport uses the less common B&S collets. These machines do wear, and it is usually the quill, and the table. The one I am selling has some slop in the table in the middle of the travel, but is still very useable.
    Tooling is important. At a minimum, you need collets (common r8 for Bridgeport J), cutters, a mill vise, and a rotary table is good. That is just the start. The newer models are variable speed, but the earlier belt change models still are fine. A rotary phase converter is best to deal with 3 ph power, but a static converter works. Some machines have been converted to single-phase.
    Be prepared to drive a distance for the right machine. With a mill and a lathe, you have the basics of a simple machine shop.
    -Donny
     
  11. Jul 2, 2016
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
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    This might be long:
    I do this for a living as most of you know and have since 1981. I have had 2 mills, my 1st was a Kent mill, wore out piece of **** with no parts available, made in 1980, I used that thing for 8 years and made lots of money. Didn't sell it I took it to the scrap yard when I was finished. I now have a Bridgeport clone made by Willis, heavier frame than a Bridgeport, just as accurate and will take a heavier cut. Bridgeport used to be an industry standard for this type of mill, not anymore, to costly when compared to other mills.
    Stick with R8 collets, way cheaper than NMT taper holders. A 30 or 40 taper is as big as will go into a Bridgeport size head, sturdier than collets but cost prohibitive in the long run, unless you get a bunch with the machine.
    My picks would be Acer, Acra, Lagun, Willis, Birmingham, Millport, Newport. Or newer Kent from say 1988 up to present. All are as good as a Bridgeport, I have run them all over the years. The Lagun would be my top pick.
    I do agree stay away from the M model Bridgeports with the round ram, horrible beasts. If you can find a Bridgeport in good shape under $1500-1600 go for it. I paid $800 for my current machine. Digital readouts will help a lot on a used machine especially for a newby and make doing things more accurate and faster.

    Do not rewind a motor for single phase, you will need the hp. Best choice get a Variable frequency drive (VFD) this will run the machine on 220 volts and convert it to 3 phase, with some other perks from the VFD.
    Belt drive or vari drive head, either is fine.
    You will need collets and a mill vise, a drill chuck, a drill set and some end mills.
    Eventually a boring head and bars along with a rotary table, with this you can make most of the tools and fixtures you will need after that.
    You will need an indicator and holder to true the head and vise up to the table.
    With this and a small 9" to 13" lathe you can build virtually anything you would ever need.

    My mill was built in 1994, my lathes in 1943 and 1946, all are in great shape and I use them way more than most guys on here would. They'll last me the rest of my life.
    You don't have to but tons of tooling, just ask and I'll tell you where to find tooling and other stuff cheaper or how to make it and make do.
    I'm probably one of the last group of people, age wise that learned from the old masters before the advent of CNC replaced so much of that knowledge with computer programs. I still do slot of stuff the old way even though I have access to a CNC and can program and run it, it just seems right to do certain things this way and helps keep the brain sharp and honors some of my old teachers that have retired or passed on including my father and grandfather.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2016
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  12. Jul 2, 2016
    47v6

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    great post from a professional.
     
  13. Jul 2, 2016
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

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    Great stuff. Thank you guys. Again, I am in no hurry to buy so, time is certainly on my side. Actually, no place to put one right now but, we are planning a move and, a decent garage is in the must have column.

    Mike, thanks for the input. I may very well take you up on helping me find tooling, etc. when the time comes. I hope I do not become a bother. I'm sure my questions will be many.
     
  14. Jul 2, 2016
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    Not a problem!!
     
  15. Jul 2, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

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    Been in the family for about 25 years..............4 years old when I got it , came out of a Model Shop . Two years ago the factory power feed finally took a shix. Bought a new Servo X & Y feed along with a new feed screw & nut while I had it apart..........runs like new.
    Tooling does't have to come with the machine unless the fellow selling has it at a reasonable price...........I have bought nice tooling for pennys on the dollar at auctions , flea , garage & Craig's list. Lots of old machinist are also retiring...........

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Jul 3, 2016
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

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    That's a nice one. From a model shop? That had to have an easy life then, huh?

    So, it seems the DRO is a nice option, especially for a machine that has wear on it/play in the manual feeds. Is it hard or expensive to add X-Y DRO to a machine?
     
  17. Jul 3, 2016
    a42pb

    a42pb Member

    atascadero ca
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    A good Bridgeport or a good clone over a clapped out overpriced Bridgeport. Mcruff post good ask these guys what to look for as far as wear on the machines
     
  18. Jul 3, 2016
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

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    Yup. The videos I've been watching have described grabbing the table at each end and trying to rock it side to side, checking for the fish scales on the lays (lays, right?), free play ( lash or back lash or something) in the feeds, a beat up table. That's about all I've learned so far. I'm hoping to have a smart guy go with me when I finally go looking, to help me. Not sure if he will or not.
     
  19. Jul 3, 2016
    47v6

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    DRO runs around 1000 bucks for a bridgeport. Its why I don't have one. Its also why I am limited since I have no formal training. The DRO on the boss's mostly broken machine makes things really easy in comparison, but his mill/lathe combo is a POS to begin with I think. If you're just using the machine for "rough" machining it will b fine without for a novice like me or you.

    If you find one with functioning DRO expect to pay a bit more and its worth it. If you also fine one with power table feeds, expect to pay more. Those go for 300 bucks each.

    The "fish scales" are the marks from hand scraping the ways. Mine has none left anywhere. My table has all kinds of scars. It does tram out pretty good though. For a sub 2K machine, it might be par for the course. For a sub 1K machine its expected, like mine.

    You have to expect lash in old machines. I have it in the feeds on both my lathe in the cross saddle and the feeds for my mill. You just work with it. If you back off a cut you realize that there will be however much lash before the tool touches the work again. Its your machine, so you learn how to operate it with its inadequacies. Sometimes you wreck a part.
     
  20. Jul 3, 2016
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

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    The word your looking for is "Ways".
    The things you really need to look for or listen for.
    Variable speed head, a lite rattling sound kind of like valve clatter. This is caused by the plastic bushing on the inside of the vari drive sheave.
    Time consuming to replace but not expensive. Can rattle like this for a long time before it needs to be replaced.
    The table slop from side to side is wear on the ways but there is a tapered gib strip about 10" and 14" long (X and Y axis) that is adjustable to take up the wear on the table ways for years.
    I prefer 1 shot lube pumps to electric, they don't over oil the table ways like the electric ones do.
    The taper inside the spindle needs to be clean and relatively dent free so the collets will seat properly.
    The clocking spring that retracts the spindle quill up and down needs to be in good shape and adjusted to raise the quill on its own and support it. If the spring breaks the quill will fall to its stop or the table. Not expensive but can be a pain to replace especially the first time.
    Quill must move up and down smoothly.
    The crank for raising the knee and table needs to move freely also. The power feed for the quill hopefully works, not hard to repair but lots of parts and if to much is broken or missing can get expensive to replace.
    As for cranking the table back and forth these acme threaded nuts are made of bronze and are adjustable to some extent to account for wear.
    Not hard to replace not to expensive, about $150 for all 4 for the table in X and Y axis.
    Vari drive head belts are cheap around $49 but a pain in the *** to replace, I've done it by myself but it's really a 2 man job to be honest.
    Step pulley spindle belts are even cheaper and way easier.

    Digital readouts are expensive if you go with major brands, but there are several place's to get them for $350 to $600 that are chinese and Taiwanese that have pretty good reviews over the last 6 years. Some of these are sold on eBay quite often for $250, instructions are horrible but they work quite well after installation.

    Spindle bearings need to be tight and spin freely with little to no drag when the spindle is in neutral. These are time consuming and expensive to replace, you cannot go cheap on these bearings, there are 3 of them in most heads that cost about $250-$400 for the bearings they are generally abec 7 or 9 super precision spindle bearings. Way more precise than anything on a car. Maybe .0002- .0005 spindle run out when worn in, new should be no more than .00005 to .0001 total runout.


    The little Fish scale or boomerang marks are not really the scraping marks from truing the ways. Those go on after the ways are scraped true for fitting, they are generally put on with a biax power scraper for (oil retention) to aid in wear of the fitted ways.

    Make sure the machine is leveled with no rock on the floor, it will help make parts flatter and cut down on vibration and noise.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
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