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Howell Odd Fire V6 Fuel Injection Kit Install

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Norcal69, Jul 29, 2020.

  1. Aug 19, 2020
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Is your fuel return line plumbed with a tube to return that fuel under the fuel level? If not it could cause the return fuel to create bubbles that could be sucked into he fuel pump and then to the injector. I am researching how to do mine and this point was made in a youtube video.
    That hunting at idle would make me scream.
     
  2. Aug 19, 2020
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    From the scan tool data it looks like the Ecm is trying to kept the idle around 750ish. Is the engine really running at 224 degrees? The TP sensor voltage is a little high and the Map sensor signal is a little unstable? Have you tried adj. the idle screw or is it plugged. The screw is only a stop but adj. it will open or close the throttle plate and a small adjustment in or out may be all it needs.
     
  3. Aug 19, 2020
    Steve's 70-5

    Steve's 70-5 Active Member

    Louisville, Ky
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    I am not a engine guy but, was online reading about HEI distributors . They said " the HEI distributor has a higher voltage sparks which permits a bigger spark gap, which results in more power. Will changing the spark gap help any?
     
  4. Aug 20, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Alright guys up until now I had been a little disappointed with with Howell's tech department. Troy literally told me that unless I had a scanner there was nothing he could do to help me. Honestly that really pissed me off..... but I now understand why he said that.
    I sent Troy the idle numbers from the scanner in the video I posted above. Before I was even able to tell him about the hunting for idle he instructed me to shut the engine off immediately so it would not be harmed. My initial thought was "huh, Ive been driving this thing all over the place"....
    troy directed me to the Block Learn section of the scanner. The block learn counts were holding a consistent 140. Troy then educated me about the Block Learn parameter and what to look for.
    The ideal Block Learn number is 128. Any number over 128 is a lean condition. Any number below 128 is a rich condition. With my engine spending the majority of the time over 128, I was slowly burning it down.
    Troy instructed me to increase the fuel pressure adjustment at the regulator by 8 turns counter clockwise. And report back to him. After a little research about TBI fuel pressure and Block Learn, I decided to try only 6 turns to start. 6 turns counter clockwise. This increased the fuel pressure to 17psi and eliminated 90 percent of the idle hunting. Watching the oxygen sensor the lean/rich transition; the transition went from 10sec lean/6 sec rich down to about 4 seconds each. I now see that the hunting was caused by the oxygen sensor reading lean as the rpm fell, then the ecm would dump a bunch of fuel to keep the engine running and bring the rpm back up. Now that I know the goal is to have the O2 sensor swap rich/lean as fast as possible I will work at fine tuning the fuel pressure.
    After the fuel pressure adjustment I drove the jeep out to irrigate. I still need to fine tune a few things, but I am much happier now!
     
  5. Aug 20, 2020
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

    socal-Simi Valley
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    Another thing you can look at is Integrator along with O2 cross counts and block learn. The Integrator is the short-term fuel trim and block learn is more long term. You definitely want to see the O2 switching, rich/lean your video shows the cross counts at 1 normally the cross counts are closer to 10. The cross counts are the number times the O2 sensor switches between rich and lean per second.
    I’m still curious about the coolant temp, the scan tool is reading 224 degrees. Is the engine running at 224 degrees, the reason I ask is if the engine is running cooler than the ECM thinks it is that will cause a lean issue. Just thinking out loud. Once you get it dialed in and hit the trails your going to love it.
     
  6. Aug 20, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    The engine was definitely running 224. Between being lean, sitting inside my bay with little air flow and ambient temp of 105..... The coolant temp sender reads really close to engine temp measured with my heat gun. I have discovered that my actual water temp gauge reads about 15 degrees cold.

    After some driving the Integrator is running 127-128 and the Block learn is about 121-125. I talked with Troy again today about the small amount of hunting I was still experiencing. Troy instructed me to open the throttle plate a little and then to an IAC calibration. I opened the throttle plate a little and it helped the hunt. Next I will do IAC.
     
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  7. Aug 20, 2020
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

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    What’s his IAC calibration?
     
  8. Aug 20, 2020
    45es

    45es Active Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    It is the process of electrically closing the IAC and then manually setting the engine idle speed (minimum idle speed) to a value approximately 100-150 rpm less than the ecm commanded rpm (target idle speed) when in closed loop. Look at post #99 steps 1-7 for the process. This effectively spans the IAC through it's range for the varying conditions during engine operation.
     
  9. Aug 20, 2020
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

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    Sorry I could of ask that question better. I was curious is Troy has a different procedure to learn the IAC
     
  10. Aug 21, 2020
    '74Renegade

    '74Renegade Active Member

    Fair Oaks, CA
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    So am I reading this correctly, if you dont have access to an OBD1 scanner and your Howell isn't tunning properly you are out of luck?
     
  11. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    Troy's procedure is the same as posted above.

    1. Jumper the A and B terminals of the ALDL connector. 2. Turn the ignition key on, but do not start engine (this will close idle air control). 3. Disconnect the 4 pin idle air control connector. 4. Remove the jumper from the ALDL connector and start the engine. 5. With engine running at idle, adjust throttle stop for desired MINIMUM idle speed. 6. Turn engine off and reconnect idle air control. 7. This should correct the problem. If not contact Howell at 810-765-5100
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2020
  12. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    You are correct. Unless your really familiar and "good" with TBI systems it's going to be hard to pinpoint the problem without a scanner to tell you what the sensors are reading. I feel like Howell should make this more known...... rather than an oh by the way kinda thing.
    I have a feeling that my engine has an aftermarket cam in it. I don't know what the PO did, but the engine was rebuilt at some point and the intake/headers were added along with the 500cfm carb. I'm willing to bet that the chip included in the Howell kit is designed for the stock dauntless cam/vacuum
    I have ordered a scan cable for data logging from: OBD Diagnostics and plan to data log onto my laptop...... yup.... Imma be that dude driving around with a laptop open on the seat...... need to grow a mullet and get an IROC Camaro..... :rofl:
    I will then offer this info to Howell for an improved chip to be burned. If Howell doesn't want to use my info then Ill have one of the many other burners make me a chip.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    On another note.... I have hooked the fuel lines back up to the 6 way brass valve and changed to the rear tank. I am not currently noticing any fuel supply issues felt in the engine or registering on the fuel pressure gauge while driving. I think the brass valve is just fine... time will tell :waiting:
     
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  14. Aug 21, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

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    Agree. That sounds like a really big thing to just leave up to the customer to figure out. :confused:
     
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  15. Aug 21, 2020
    '74Renegade

    '74Renegade Active Member

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    Agreed. This was a turn off for me, especially for what it costs to get into a TBI set up.
     
  16. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I probably should have assumed that I would need a scanner to diagnose the big problems.... but I was under the impression that this system was bolt on and go.:shrug:
    Buddy of mine installed a Howell kit on his CJ7 with 258. Fired up and ran great with no additional tuning required. I think the issue here is that the kit for the Dauntless is not really ironed out... lots of variation in intake, cam, exhaust mods done.
    You do not need a scanner to diagnose check engine codes. That can be done by jumping the OBD port terminals A,B and counting the flashes.
    It looks like you can source old Snap on Mt2500 scanners "bricks" plus the necessary adapters and chips for about $300 on ebay. The scan cable and software shown above are only $100 if you have a computer you can hook it to.
    I felt like it was implied that this system was bolt on and go..... for the common swaps; CJ7, YJ, SBC... this is probably the case. Everywhere says that the TBI system max fuel pressure is 12PSI or it will run rich. Why my system needs 17-18 PSI is beyond me.... but this could only be diagnosed with a scanner and fuel pressure gauge. Maybe its because my Dauntless is so thunderous it craves fuel! :sneak: I gotta say it shi*s and gits now.
     
  17. Aug 21, 2020
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    You have just confirmed to me about my decision a few years ago when looking into the TBI route on my setup. The first engine I did the TBI on is definitely 'NOT STOCK' as it was built originally for the Pikes Peak Hill Climb and is full of Kenne Bell parts. My conversations with them were not very comforting in that they could handle a stock engine, much less a modified setup.

    Luckily the self tuning units started hitting and after the Powerjection I really like what I get from my EZ-EFIs. Now to find something cheaper that works good too without me having to look or work tuning tables :D
     
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  18. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I am leaning toward the EZ-EFI for my moms 37 Plymouth with ZZ4/700R4 combo.
    I am willing to bet that your engine setup is much more radical than mine. I know that the stock TBI type setups are not as friendly to high HP builds..... I have no idea what is in my engine; just that it has good oil pressure, good compression, and needs 17 psi to run on TBI.
     
  19. Aug 21, 2020
    Norcal69

    Norcal69 Out of the box thinker 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

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    I would be curious to hear about the numbers your putting out on a scanner. Have you ever hooked your up to a scanner? My o2 counts always hover around 0-2 and only get up to maybe 5 if I rev up the engine.
     
  20. Aug 21, 2020
    Mjragan

    Mjragan Member

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    Great job sticking with it and getting it dialed in . I agree with you about the cam that would explain the Fluctuations in the Map sensor signal at idle. Don’t worry about the fuel pressure, the big block with Tbi runs at 25 to 30 psi and it was a common back in the day before we could program custom ECM proms to bump the fuel pressure to fatten up the mixture.
    I can check mine Sunday, what are your block learn and integrator numbers at?
     
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