1. Registration trouble? Please use the "Contact Us" link at the bottom right corner of the page and your issue will be resolved.
    Dismiss Notice

HEI distributor cap #1 terminal

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by homersdog, Dec 13, 2014.

  1. Feb 8, 2015
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,629
  2. Feb 8, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    Obviously this is uncharted territory for me and I appreciate everyone's patience. Thank you!

    Yes...I'm glad you saw that. That's what I was try to convey but didn't describe it as good as you. I understand the rest of the install (seating, oil pump shaft alignment, plug wires connections, etc.) The current issue is the vacuum advance and cap alignment. Things just don't look right in comparison.

    Here's mine with the cap off...See the cap locator tab? It's before the vacuum advance.
    [​IMG]
     
  3. Feb 8, 2015
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,629
    I now see that. Guess I shoulda looked closer. I could be wrong and if i am others will chime in, but there seems to be no reason why this cannot work. The actual position of the distributor is irrelevant. What IS important is the placement of the wires on the cap and which cylinder they go to. you're going to need to rotate the distributor to deal with the vacuum advance and the fan.

    You need to be sure that your distributor is actually an odd fire one. This site http://members.toast.net/rbuchholz/heiexp.html shows you the difference. The information on that site is important. All of it.
     
  4. Feb 8, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    Ok
    After my last post I had to get in the shower...Running late to work! But hey...My CJ comes first. :)

    I bought 2 HEI distributors for $50 bucks shipped. One was assembled and the other not so much. I just went with it...I remembered the ad saying 1 odd and 1 even fire. Turns out, the odd cap is on the even distributor. When I get home tonight I'll swap everything around and give it another college try.

    So sorry everyone but I would never had been able to do this without your help!
     
  5. Feb 8, 2015
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2007
    Messages:
    5,400
    Yep Yep Yep. The dist I got was also for an even fire so I had to remove three pointers on the dist shaft, change the pick-up coil to the odd-fire and re notch the dist housing to clock everything correct for the odd-fire. Lots of fun. I love it.
     
  6. Feb 8, 2015
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,515
    FWIW here is mine after I put #1 back on #1. Next week I'll rotate it 25.7 deg CW to get the vac advance away from the fan. I also need to re-route the fuel line to do this because it will be in the way of the Part of the cap where the 12 volt connection is made.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Feb 8, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    That motor is way too clean!
     
  8. Feb 9, 2015
    Posimoto

    Posimoto Hopeless JEEP Addict Sponsor

    Minden, Nevada
    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2003
    Messages:
    4,470
    I found a 90* fitting for my vacuum line, plus I had room for a fan spacer which helps.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Feb 9, 2015
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,018
    Great thread guys. I like to read all I can regarding 225 OF and HEI. The one I'm using I got at a junk yard in Texas many years ago for $25 including plug wires.

    Just a few thoughts. 1) I recently became aware that Performance has a DUI with extended shaft so you don't need to do the grinding thing to make it fit.

    2) I couldn't fit the adjustable vacuum advance as it's in the way of the fan. I already have a fan spacer but it's too short but I'm also as close to the radiator as I want to go. I plan to shop at NAPA (or Amazon) and get a vacuum advance canister with the hose hookup on the side.

    3) Like others in this thread, I've found several ways to get the HEI installed incorrectly but the thing works great when you get it done right.

    4) I always carry a spare module on the trail.
     
  10. Feb 9, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    If you're not going with the adjustable...I have 2 regular vacuum advances with the side hose port sitting on the workbench. Pay for shipping and you can have one.

    Here's the position where the motor runs the best...I still have to set the timing. The timing description on the Rich Mott page sure seems extensive.
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Feb 10, 2015
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,018
     
  12. Feb 10, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    I bought the same one that homersdog recommended in another thread somewhere.

    ACCEL #31035
     
  13. Feb 10, 2015
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member Sponsor

    Falcon, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,482
    I'll look to see if I can find the document on the mechanical curve vs the vacuum for the HEI. I have it somewhere as I set the spring weight and vacuum for my adjustable one.
     
  14. Feb 10, 2015
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,018
    That's the new adjustable one with the end connection.

    You mentioned that you had some old ones? If the old ones are off of a 225 OF and have the vacuum connection on the side, I'd like to get the part number.
     
  15. Feb 10, 2015
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,018
    That may help to choose which one to buy. Thanks!
     
  16. Feb 10, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    Does this help with anything? It came with my new adjustable vacuum advance.
    [​IMG]


    Oh...Sorry. Here's the number on mine - 605 24
     
  17. Feb 11, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    I thought I would post this pic for a visual to the free degree wheel technique Rich Motts describes. I didn't try writing a "2" or "4"...It was hard enough making the "3".
    [​IMG]

     
  18. Feb 11, 2015
    AKCJ

    AKCJ Active Member

    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    1,018
    Well. I wasn't able to find any info using Google on the 605 24 number.

    The ACCEL chart shows the vacuum advance starting to come in around 6 or 7 inches of vacuum. And that it's all in by 7 to 9 inches. Furthermore, the total advance is adjustable up to over 20 degrees of advance.

    Looking at the side hookup vacuum advance canisters, I have found a few that may work.

    Example 1: NAPA Echlin #VC1827, starts to advance at 5-7 inches, max advance 9 degrees at 9-11 inches.

    Example 2: NAPA Echlin #VC1826, starts at 5-7 inches, max 12 degrees at 10-13 inches.

    Does anyone care to comment on what values may work best for our 225 OF?
     
  19. Feb 13, 2015
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member Sponsor

    Falcon, CO
    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    4,482
    The Rich Motts Article is the one I used for the re curve work via cut and paste. I'll put the full text in here so others can find it.

    ---------------------------------------------
    Getting it to Run Right - Recurving for Mileage and Performance
    Just installing an HEI is not all that needs to be done. You have to "dial it in" to make it work like it really can.

    The stock HEI's vacuum advance diaphragm is far too sensitive to work with the older carburetor's ported spark vacuum system. It will advance to fast, too much, and too soon, hurting performance, mileage, and possibly burning valves and pistons. Leave the vacuum line off till you make the modification.

    You'll need to get an adjustable vacuum advance diaphragm from your parts store. It will run you about $20 or so, but it's well worth it. Parts stores will probably have to order it, speed shops will probably have it in stock. Make sure it's for a GM HEI.

    Before installing it, check the instructions to make sure, but all I've seen needs to have the Allen adjustment screw turned all the way counter clockwise to DECREASE sensitivity. You do not want it to work fast, you want it at the least sensitive position.

    Install it carefully as per instructions. If you have trouble reaching the mounting screws apply a little vacuum to the diaphragm, it turns the plate out of the way.

    Install the limiter cam the new adjustable diaphragm came with. Set it so it only travels about 1/2 the way it did without it. You can make marks on the distributor body before and after the cam is installed to see where to set it. 1/2 way should give you about 14 degrees vacuum advance. Without that limiter it will be worse than it was with the original advance diaphragm.

    Clean the damper and the pointer. It will help if it's painted black.

    Roll the engine to TDC. Since you don't have timing marks beyond 10 degrees, you need to make some. We are going to make a $100 degree wheel for free.

    Use dabs of white, yellow, or silver paint to make it easy to see against the black background. The tip of a small nail or wire makes a good brush..

    Put a tiny dab of paint along the notch in the damper. This is your normal timing mark. Put another larger dab right on the 0 mark on the stationary pointer and a tiny one on the 10 degree point.

    When the notch and the 0 are lined up exactly, the timing is 0.

    Rotate the engine till the scribed line lines up with the 10 on the stationary pointer. Put another dab on the damper exactly where it lines up with "0" on the pointer. Put a "1" next to it. This is now another 10 degree mark.

    Move the crankshaft another 10 degrees till your new "1" mark is opposite the "10" on the pointer. Now put another mark on the damper next to the "0" on the pointer. Mark it with a "2" This is now your 20 degree mark.

    Again, move the crankshaft 10 degrees more till the "2" mark is opposite the "10" on the pointer. Put another mark on the damper next to the "0" on the pointer. Marking it "3". Right, that's your 30 degree mark.

    Again, put the "3" opposite the "10" on pointer, mark the spot next to the pointer's "0" with "4" It should end up like this: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 -


    Be as accurate as you can.

    What we did is made the degree marks on the damper rather than the pointer. The reason you heavily marked the 0 on the pointer is that now is your new reference. When the "2" is opposite the 0, it's timed at 20 degrees. We can read all the way up to 40 degrees ("4") now, the original pointer only went to 10.
    Disconnect the vacuum advance hose. Start it, take a reading - this is your "Initial Timing." It should be about 10 degrees.

    Run it up to cruise speed, about 3000 RPM. Notice the marks moved as you revved it up. Now your "2" should be near the big "0" on the pointer. You can interpolate what it is, like 23 etc.

    The difference between the reading at speed and the Initial is how much your mechanical advance moved it. It should have moved it 10 to 15 degrees more than the initial. So if you started at 10 degrees, it should have gone to 20 to 25 degrees. That advance is simply the weights inside the distributor, under the rotor. Kits are available to modify this curve, but stock is better for off-road performance, since the odd-fire loves making low RPM torque.

    Now reconnect the vacuum line to the advance. Take another reading at idle to make sure the vacuum isn't affecting it at idle, it should still be at the Initial reading. -- If it moves the timing you have the wrong type of vacuum on the line. It needs ported vacuum, not manifold vacuum. Ported vacuum is near 0 at idle and gets stronger as you accelerate till about 1/2 throttle, then it decreases again as the throttle open more. Manifold vacuum is strongest at idle. It's important you use the right vacuum source, otherwise the system will work backwards!


    Now rev it up to cruise speed again.
    Take another reading. The difference between what you saw at cruise last time and now is how much the vacuum moved it. It should have moved another 10 or 15 degrees again. So if the cruise reading before was 25, and now it's 35, the vacuum advance moved it 10.

    That total reading should not exceed 35 degrees. More than that can and will create problems, like low mileage and overheating. Lots more can destroy things. What happens is the plug ignites the fire long before the piston is at top dead center, creating undue cylinder pressures and possible damage. The term often used is "pinging," but you don't always hear pinging until it's too late.

    If the vacuum advance is taking it too far, beyond 35, you can reset the little limiter cam inside the distributor that came with the adjustable vacuum advance to limit it a little more. If it's much below 35, adjust it for more. Initial 8-10 Mechanical + ? (10-15) Vacuum + ? (10-15) Total = 35
    --------------------------------------------------------------

    My notes say my mechanical is at 12 and 15 with the vacuum and it runs real nice on my '51 the notes are based on.

    My timing gun allows me to dial in degree settings. That is what I used to work on mine and get it set right.
     
  20. Feb 13, 2015
    Focker

    Focker That's what I do, I know things and I fix stuff. Staff Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Tri-Cities WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
    Messages:
    6,215
    I worked most of the day dialing in my HEI. I bought a fan spacer but it was too long. I ended up removing the fan to ensure I could make all the adjustments without hitting anything. It was a tough day, there were times I thought I had it but it would pop at the carb if I hit the gas. So I tried moving things around and then there were times it wouldn't run at all! I did come up with a fast way to find TDC, remove plug #1 and just look in the hole until the piston comes to the top.

    I finally have things locked down and it's idling at 600 RPM, timing set to about 9* and when I ramp it up the peak degree sits around 32*, no pops! Tomorrow I'll hook up the vacuum line and finish things up. I'll post a pic with the position of the HEI when I'm done. Next task is to locate a better air cleaner, I hate the chrome edelbrock. Wish I had the stock one.
     

Share This Page

New Posts