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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. Oct 20, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    It took 8 hours, many of the them on my back under the willys and a couple trips to the hardware store, but I got the two broken off oil pan bolts out of the bottom of the block and hopefully retapped the holes successfully. I don't even know why I try using EZ-out or similar extractors - they never work. If the bolt head twists off from seized up threads, then the much smaller EZ-outs will never work. I guess I was hoping the bolts were broken for some other reason...of course I managed to break off the EZ-out in the first one, and broke a good drill bit off in the other. But with persistence and this little tungsten carbide metal shaving/grinding tool on the small rotary tool (dremel type thing) you can get some work done on hardened bits:
    [​IMG]
    I managed to get the holes drilled out. I ended up having to drill out the holes with a 7/32" bit, which I think took some of the thread out as well, but I couldn't get the 1/4-20 tap to clean-up the thread when drilled with the smaller bit. The two 1/4 oil pan bolts thread in smooth and nice now, but they are just a bit loose and I worry about them stripping out when torqued hard. Of course, oil pan doesn't need too much torque and I test them with a spacer to about 15ft-lbs and it seems like they should hold. As the holes are blind I need to find a bottoming tap that will carry a bit more thread deeper in the hole and that may also help with preventing the threads from stripping. Otherwise its drill them completely out, and then tap to a larger size bolt and/or swap in a helicoil.
    The two clean and threaded holes here - the two outside holes (these are passenger side):
    [​IMG]
    I also tried to beat the big dent out of the oil pan. The passenger side of the oil pan took a pretty good hit at some point and may have also been dragged over something. I wonder if this event might have been responsible for the broken oil pan bolts and leaky gasket. Anyway, this was not fine body work - just a wood dowel and a big hammer to beat it out. I debated just buying a new oil pan - until I saw the prices. This will work fine for now...just have to decide if I want to repaint it...
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
  2. Oct 20, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    So next question...I got a one piece fel-pro gasket for the oil pan - its kind of a rubber or thick silicon gasket.
    [​IMG]
    I have never used anything like it before (well the little rubber pieces on the intake ends - which many suggest just using a bead of RTV), and wondering what is the best install method. Should I use some sort of gasket tack or sealant or RTV on this thing? I've used plain old black RTV as well as permatex #2 and recently been using Permatex High Tack (the red liquidy stuff with the brush in the can), but that was with traditional paper, cork and whatever the sort of composite paper fancy modern gaskets are made of.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2019
    ITLKSEZ and 47v6 like this.
  3. Oct 20, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

    Sedalia MO.
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    Now's a good time for a bit of oil pan skid plate to keep it from getting another dent and skid.
     
  4. Oct 20, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    Extractors have never worked for me other than breaking off and creating 10X more work. If that gasket is anything like the lube locker style, use nothing on them.
     
  5. Oct 20, 2019
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet Sponsor

    MS
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    Last gasket like that I used, it required rtv to keep it from leaking.
    I agree with the above, extractors cause headache. I’ve had better luck with left hand drill bits and drilling through the fastener before using an extractor occasionally helps.
     
    dozerjim likes this.
  6. Oct 20, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    that is kind of what I was thinking, but I've not seen a lube locker re-usable one up close. Given some of the abuse this oil pan has taken, the top mating surface may not be all that flat or perfect....I tried to flatten and file flat the mount holes that were overtightened and deformed, but the entire top of the pan may be a bit off. Thinking a bit of black RTV might help just a bit, but then again, this blue rubber gasket is really thick compared to most that I have seen and should accommodate just a bit of irregularities along the mating surfaces.
     
  7. Oct 20, 2019
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! Sponsor

    Washington DC.
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    The ones i used on my old chevy 2500 auto trans pan were amazing. It was factory. the new filter came with a rubber gasket. Leaked from everywhere, I took the old gasket out of the trash, cleaned it, put it back on and it never leaked. re used it like 4 times. I can guarantee its still on that truck.
     
  8. Oct 21, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Fel pro website says install dry...can't hurt to try. Worst case it leaks some oil - just like everything else on the wagon does. If its an issue can try again with RTV at the next oil change.
    how to install gaskets - clean & dry
     
  9. Oct 21, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Those early oil pans are often heavier gauge metal than newer ones, and certainly heavier than aftermarket. Yes, a good time for a skid plate. That pan with the bottom drain plug is asking to rip out the plug if you drag it over anything. With a skidplate, weld a short pipe ring around the plug to protect it, or get a later pan with the plug on the side or rear of the sump.
    If you're worried about the threads holding, just drill oversize and install a heli-coil. There's plenty of meat there.
    I too don't bother with ez-outs on stuff like this. I try drilling with a left-hand bit. Sometimes that will twist the broken bolt out while drilling, it not, it had to be drilled anyway to retap or heli-coil.
    -Donny
     
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  10. Oct 21, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    okay - back to the oil filter...I wanted to replace the oil canister with a spin on cartridge. It needs an adapter...so I got this one as I assumed I had a bypass valve already on the engine.
    Mr Gasket 1270 Oil Filter Conversion Kit, 1956-67 GM V8

    But it turns out I don't have this bypass valve on my engine - guess its OEM part 5573979
    Chevy Oil Filter Valve Assembly, 1956-1957

    This is what my oil filter mount currently looks like:
    [​IMG]

    So, basically, was the PO mounting the oil canister incorrectly directly to this, or was the bypass valve optional and it was okay to mount it like this? No matter what, it appears I need to get a bypass valve to mount the spin on canister adapter I bought. Of course, now that I started to figure out what I actually need, I think I found an option for a spin on adapter to use without the bypass valve: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/prm-1134
    Is it worth the extra $22 for the bypass protection?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2019
  11. Oct 22, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    I need a bit of inspiration....this is a member of the OWF and his wagon..I believe its a 57 (and maybe STG). Although I don't love the front bumper, the rest of it is pretty much sweet, and I'd like to get mine like this. Seems like the front hubs stick pretty far out, wonder if there is a axle swap there?
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Oct 22, 2019
    Jw60

    Jw60 Recovering Jeepaholic

    Sedalia MO.
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    Someone refresh me on this missing bypass. I'm pretty sure I had to take mine out for my swap. This bypass under the filter just allows unfiltered oil to enter the engine when the oil filter is clogged or too cold to flow well thru the media, which creates a pressure differential between filter inlet and outlet. The bypass opens to allow oil to flow and unfiltered oil is better than no oil.
    The pressure relief was always in the pump and the thermostatic valve would be on later engines with remote engine oil coolers.
     
  13. Oct 23, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    there are different adapters - some specifically to be used with the bypass, and some specifically to be used without the bypass. Not fully understanding this at the time, I bought one that requires the bypass to be in place.

    yes - and because of this, and as I don't fully understand or know if there is some sort of other bypass built into the system, I think I am going to buy an oem replacement bypass and install it and then I will install the adapter I already have for the filter. Its the most expensive way to go, and may not be totally necessary, but overall the cost isn't that much more ($20 more at this point since i already bought the filter adapter) and it seems like worst case scenario of plugging up an oil filter is possible given I don't know much of the history of this (old) engine and I don't know if there is some other bypass system in place.
     
  14. Oct 23, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Yor old canister adapter should unbolt from the block, and I have just used the 1960s-up stock adapter that has the little spring-loaded bypass included. It took a couple tries to find a spin-on filter that sealed on the block cut for the canister gasket, but there is one.
    -Donny
     
  15. Oct 23, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    I thought that was true...but the canister has been mounted directly to something in the block that does not unbolt - honestly I cannot tell if its part of the machined block, or if its press fit or bolted in, but there is no obvious way to remove it (I may very well have overlooked it - see pic above)...so I don't know...I do know from some vids that the bypass valve does bolt directly into what I have....supposedly the bypass valve would have been between the canister and the block (or whatever it is that is in the picture), but since the PO had the canister directly mounted the pieced pictured, maybe that is why the canister never seemed to fit/seal properly? None of it is a huge issue...just trying to learn how this sbc works...the learning curve has been much steeper than I expected.
     
  16. Oct 24, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    Allright - I am still confused...not that its surpising...
    So, this is the oem replacement oil bypass valve that can be bought aftermarket - its the same thing as is currently in my sbc. How the adapter is supposed to connect to this is beyond me. Something is not right (possibly me) but the adapter will not mate to this:
    56-67 Oil Filter Bypass Valve - With Gasket | Corvette Central
    [​IMG]

    This is how I think its currently set-up:
    [​IMG]

    The adapter I bought should work like this - but it doesn't fit in my estimation:
    [​IMG]

    As seen in this vid the bypass and the adapter pieces should just fit together:


    Somehow something must be wrong with my adapter....
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
  17. Oct 25, 2019
    45es

    45es Member Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Naches, WA
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    James, I don't know why you say you do not have the bypass valve when your picture clearly shows it. Using the original oil canister long bolt as a handle, thread it into the oil bypass valve that's on the engine. You have already removed the two 1/4" bolts so the only thing that should be holding the bypass valve in place is many years of heat and crud. Slowly work/pry the bypass valve out. Clean things up and install parts as your above diagram indicates.
     
  18. Oct 25, 2019
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member Sponsor

    Denver, CO
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    you are correct...finally figured out that I have the bypass valve as shown and posted above. I was completely thrown off by the two different cartridge adapters and that the one I have isn't fitting as well as I couldn't figure out how to remove the bypass. Using the long canister bolt as a pulling handle was too obvious and functional of an idea for me to think of. I will definitely give it a try and see if I can get the bypass valve out and see if the adapter will mate with the bypass on the bench before reinstalling them together...
    Sorry I am a bit complainy, but I am frustrated with how it's going and getting a bit negative...Unfortunately that just makes it harder to see the needed solutions. Some forward progress will be welcome....off to Fruita for a long weekend of mtbing before the winter ski season is fully upon us.
     
  19. Oct 25, 2019
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member Sponsor

    Apopka, Fl
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    That's why we see so many unfinished projects for sale, people give up. We know you're not going to though, right? :):beer:
     
    Twin2 likes this.
  20. Oct 25, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    The gasket/square o-ring probably has the canister bypass stuck in the recess. It shold come out without too much fuss.
    -Donny
     

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