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Fino's 58 Wagon

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by FinoCJ, Aug 10, 2019.

  1. May 17, 2020
    duffer

    duffer Rodent Power

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2009
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    4,460
    IMO, a T90 will actually stand quite a bit of abuse behind a 327. Read burn outs in 3rd gear------ Geeze that was a long time ago.

    The best RTV I've found for the sbc intake end gaskets is Loctite 598. And as noted you need those surfaces very clean. I use ethanol for that. Ethanol will also clean up some of the mess before it cures. You obviously have no post install access to the rear "gasket" but the excess you squeeze out on the front can be neatly trimed away with an Exacto knife after it thoroughly cures.
     
    colojeepguy and Glenn like this.
  2. May 17, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    can't justify replacing it if ain't broke first....
    Actually, I am pretty easy on the skinny pedal and tend to drive pretty gently in general....Certainly these days with the the old jeeps, I've spent too much time trying to get them running to want to risk breaking anything and having to do it all again....
     
    colojeepguy and Glenn like this.
  3. May 17, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    5,593
    I've never named a vehicle before....the wagon may get named Erwin...after Erwin Schrodinger...really it should be Schrodinger's cat, but not sure the cat ever had a name....
    Its all back together. Let everything sit for another day - partially to allow the the sealant I used on the valve covers a bit more time, and partially because as long as I don't start it, it sits in limbo somewhere between it might work and it might not; sort of like Schrodinger's cat. Whether or not the cat is alive or dead cannot be determined until the box is opened, but as long as the box isn't opened, there is only some probability of either case (in the case of the cat, there is a time dependence that might not match the Willys)....but as long as the box is left unopened, there is still some chance the cat is alive. When you open the box, you determine its fate....I kind of like not determining the fate of the Willys as I am not sure the probability is in my favor.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schrödinger's_cat
     
    duffer, Fireball, colojeepguy and 3 others like this.
  4. May 18, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    the cat died....
     
    Muzikp and ITLKSEZ like this.
  5. May 18, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    Feb 9, 2018
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    Frustrating. :banghead:
     
    ITLKSEZ likes this.
  6. May 18, 2020
    colojeepguy

    colojeepguy Colorado Springs

    At the foot of...
    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
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    7,111
    Still leaking oil?
     
  7. May 18, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
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    6,656
    If it is in fact coming out of the valve covers, I’d be looking into the reason there is so much oil in that area to leak out in the first place. If it’s not draining back into the engine as fast as it is getting pumped into your valve train, there must be a clog in the returns and forcing it to accumulate up there.

    Can you use mirrors or a cheap borescope attachment on your phone to see the back of the engine? Hold it at 2600 rpm in your driveway and find the actual culprit before you throw any more time or money at it.... or before you strap a brick to the go-pedal and drive it off a cliff.
     
  8. May 18, 2020
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member

    Sacramento Ca.
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    Sep 27, 2016
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    1,450
    With the luck Fino is having it would oil starve and cease just before the cliff :cry:
     
    Buildflycrash, Fireball and ITLKSEZ like this.
  9. May 18, 2020
    wheelsontheroof

    wheelsontheroof New Member

    dupont pa
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    It might not be appropriate for this leak but I have had outstanding results with Indian head gasket shellac over the years . old school sealant for old school engines. it really shines on paper gaskets for water pumps and thermostat housings . its also good for gluing cork gaskets to valve covers and oil pans . its downside is that its really hard to remove when dry.
     
  10. May 19, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    The fun part is I haven't even run it....It leaks out of the VC while filling it with oil....I am pretty conscious to not fill it too fast as it does puddle in the rocker area before draining through into the valley (and there is only one 3/8"? drain hole right by the fill (and a second drain at the rear of the rockers - 2 holes total). I inspected these holes and they are totally clear to the valley - the holes from the valley down to the pan I don't know.... (FWIW - this VC/rocker area were not originally the fill location - it would have had a fill tube through the intake). Anyway, It leaks out between the gasket and top of the head surprisingly fast - I tried a very light tightening down with sealer on both side of the gasket....I've tried both cork and rubber gaskets, both with and without sealant, rtv etc....The only thing I haven't tried is just straight bead of RTV/right stuff with no gasket - it might do a better job filling in surface bumps on the cover side, but not sure about it would work on the rough, narrow, round, cast iron rim of the heads. I've tried to flatten and reshape the cover flange so its nice and flat, but as I saw today - the corner is still too bent to seal properly without overtightening in the middle which causes the puddling leaks duffer mentioned before between the ram horns...I was willing to possibly throw a set of aftermarket covers at it, but the price of the early staggered pattern is too much. I am trying to make the existing VCs work, but so far I don't think I am getting them flat or re-shaped enough....The question is do I just move past the VCs for now and get it running for a bit and look for other leaks and make sure its all good to go....If the VCs are the only problem, that would at least be somewhat helpful to know and a solution could be found...

    that is what I started with - and High Tack - the brush on kind....I agree it seems to work better on cork....Then i went to RTV....All of these should and appear to work, except there is always some sport or section that just doesn't make enough contact with the the top of the head to hold any seal....
     
  11. May 19, 2020
    wheelsontheroof

    wheelsontheroof New Member

    dupont pa
    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2020
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    37
    to repair the valve cover you would probably have to make a fixture or a die to bend it back and use modeling clay to make impressions of fitment. it doesnt have to be steel . a hardwood stair riser from the home improvement store is good for projects. I have had limited success with using rtv as a filler.
     
  12. May 19, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    5,593
    Popped the driver side cover off and was able to preserve the contact pattern of the head in the RTV...for this particular case, its a cork gasket that I then put some RTV on hoping it might help fill or seal 'small' sections that didn't have great contact between the cover and head....I did not tighten this down much initially (finger tight +) and then let it set overnight. Finished tightening the next day by hand with a nut driver so it doesn't get too much torque...I think the speck is 3ft-lbs....
    The spot that leaks between the ram horns:
    [​IMG]

    The front end of the driver side cover - this is one of the bad leak zones - it comes out when I pour oil into the breather hole you see:
    [​IMG]

    The rear end of the driver side - another spot creating puddles of oil before...almost no contact all the way around.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. May 19, 2020
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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  14. May 19, 2020
    wheelsontheroof

    wheelsontheroof New Member

    dupont pa
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    I just spoke to a friend in his late seventies . He said back in the 50s an 60s it was common to have to straighten bent valve covers and oil pans . It was also common to do body work with lead and make custom intakes for multiple carbs. The only welders were torches and coat hangers. As far as fixing valve covers he said just a small hammer and something flat . I personally like the cast covers.
     
  15. May 19, 2020
    Oldriginal86

    Oldriginal86 Member

    Pasadena, Md.
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2014
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    589
    Worked at GM truck dealerships in the early 80s, remanufactured engines used no valve cover gaskets. A thick bead of black RTV was all that was used. I believe this was mentioned before.
     
  16. May 29, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
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    Jul 18, 2013
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    Trying to figure out the overheating/cooling....Its mostly about low speed, fan driven airflow through the radiator. Current issues include a large gap between the radiator and the fan, the fan is quite off-center relative to the radiator, a marginal to non-existing fan shroud, and possibly, the OEM sbc 4 blade mechanical fan is not ideal. So I see two possible options to solve this problem:

    1) Upgrade the mechanical fan and build a good shroud. I can use a fixed, 6-blade Derale fan and try to build a shroud. Here is the fan:
    [​IMG]
    For this to work, the shroud would have to nearly encircle the perimeter of the fan (especially the bottom), and I think the shroud might have to be 2-pieces: and upper half and a lower half so that it can be installed/removed.

    2) Install and electric puller fan on the radiator....this will probably (?) solve the cooling problem most easily, but brings some other issues. First, I would have to swap the generator out for an alternator - I am actually okay with doing this, although it would take some time to get all the wiring looking clean. The +12V from the starter terminal would now go straight to the alternator instead of the Amp gauge, and the loads coming off the generator side of the guage would get run through to a fuse box...And a new Volt gauge as well. Definitely doable, just a bit tedious with wiring. Another problem would be figuring out the temp sensor for the electric fan....Where would that go? I think there is only port in the intake manifold and it has the temp gauge sending unit....Is there another location option for e-fan thermostat sending unit? Guess I could just make it a manual switch or wire it to just run all of the time.

    There are some additional reasons to make the jump to an alternator (electric wiper motor etc), but the current 30A generator is working perfect, and I have no auxiliary loads...just ignition, lights, heater fan....I like the simplicity for now. The Amp gauge is rated for 60A, so there is some safety factor there as well with regard to burning up the gauge (assuming the wiring doesn't fail).

    Thoughts on best solution? I've not used electric fans much (well maybe on modern DDs), but none that I have installed....If it will really keep things cool, that might be a cleaner, better solution than trying to fabricate a shroud. See if I can price this out a bit more as well...
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  17. May 29, 2020
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
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    I’m not normally one to endorse electric fans, but in your case, I think it would make the most sense; especially in terms of resale. A generator, although functional, is a check in the “con” column for most people. Your rad is so far from your fan, I’d bet it’s not doing much but robbing hp at this point. It would take a well-engineered tunnel of a shroud to make it effective.

    But it’s easy for us to make all kinds of work for you. (y)
     
  18. May 29, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    Some more research....see if these numbers sound about right:
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/spu-ix-30102049
    The Spal 16 electric puller fan seems to be highly recommended....It would fit correctly on the 16.5x18.5 radiator core I have now. It flows just over 2000 cfm...which at first seemed a bit concerning (internet research suggest 2800+), but reviews with same concerns suggested it wasn't a problem....and we are not talking a big, performance oriented v8 here either. The fan would cover 201 square inches, or about 66% of the 305 square inches of the core. It pulls up to 18 amps - so a new electrical system would be required. That would actually eat a big chunk of capacity of even a 60A 10SI.

    I think I could use a thermostat spacer or get a new water neck with with additional NPT ports to route the thermostat sending unit - but not sure if any of these npt fitting would be behind the thermostat...hmmm

    I haven't searched for best/sale pricing....but in short, it looks to be about $150 for the fan plus another $70 for the wiring harness/relay/thermostat switch. Also include another $30 for the engine thermostat adapter and $60 for an alternator plus whatever else and time is needed for converting from generator to alternator. So let's round out to $350 when you add in all the extra stuff for the wiring work (possible a fuse box etc). Some money could be saved piecing together a relay and making ones own wiring set-up and temp sensor. In addition to cost, the main downside I see is how the electric fan mounts to the radiator. Its not clear to me how that works, as there will be no shroud, so it will attach through the fins on the core - that makes me a bit nervous.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2020
  19. May 29, 2020
    Muzikp

    Muzikp Active Member

    Sacramento Ca.
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    Sep 27, 2016
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    1,450
    Upgraded electric system, electric fan and fuse box $350. A cool running 305... priceless (y). I would go the sure thing of electric fan over the chance of all the fab work and it still not cool enough.
     
  20. May 30, 2020
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    Going the electric fan and alternator route....so started with figuring out how to mount the alternator....Decided to modify the existing homemade bracket that mounted both the PS and generator so I could swap the alternator in for the generator....
    Used on of these F-brackets to mount on the exhaust manifold:
    [​IMG]

    Then had to modify the lower portion of the homemade PS bracket...went from looking like this:
    [​IMG]

    to looking like this:
    [​IMG]

    Final set-up - using a 3 wire, 63amp 10SI....hopefully that is enough as the fan will pull 18-19A alone, but nothing else other than standard ignition, headlights, heater fan and maybe eventually, electric wiper motor:
    [​IMG]
     
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