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Easiest 4spd to swap for my T-150 3spd

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by sac13, Dec 1, 2006.

  1. Dec 1, 2006
    sac13

    sac13 Come oooonnnnn summer....

    Shelby Township, MI
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    Ok. So I'm going to tear apart my T150 and see if it's worth rebuilding. If the repairs are too extensive and I need to swap in a new one why not upgrade to a 4spd? What is the easiest (cheapest) 4spd to swap in? I'm assuming I would need an adapter plate and new driveshaft. Thanks.
     
  2. Dec 1, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    You want a wide ratio (granny gear) transmission or a close ratio transmission? A Ford T-18 or T-19 will bolt up to your existing bellhousing, and you can chose from a few gear ratios. You'll need to buy a ca $400 adapter kit from Advance or Novak. These kits require disassembly of the transmission and reassembly with the new mainshaft supplied in the kit. http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/t18_t19.htm

    You can use a wide ratio Jeep T-18 from a J-truck or Wagoneer and a $200 kit (input shaft, retainer and pilot bushing). You also have to modify your bellhousing. http://www.partsmikeparts.com/t18_input_kit.htm You can use the adapter and mainshaft from a IH (or Jeep) T-18 and convert a Ford T-18 to mate with your Dana 20. Requires drilling and filling some holes.

    A Ford top-loader 4-speed passenger car transmission will also bolt up to your bellhousing. R&P sells an adapter to the Dana 20. If you change to the Dana 300 transfer case, you can use the Jeep top-loader, the T-176. http://www.5speeds.com/toploader.html

    With the T-18 and T-19 (and probably the top-loaders), you'll have to change your driveshaft lengths and modify the floor pans, as well as move the crossmember and change the trans mount.

    If you search the archives, you'll find oodles of info on this topic.
     
  3. Dec 1, 2006
    cj-john

    cj-john Member

    Galveston, IN.
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    Hey Tim, I'm also getting ready to swap trannies. I have a T176/D300 to use in place of my T14/D20. I'm running the T14 behind my Dauntless, whick looks to be a Buick bell housing. My T14 has a really long input shaft with a spacer between the trans and bell. What info do you have on this swap? I have it almost ready and if I need a different input shaft or some other change I would like to know before I take apart my Jeep. Thanks.
     
  4. Dec 1, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    I have not done this swap, but if the T-176 is from a CJ, it should have the same stickout as other Ford transmissions. Only the V8 J-truck and Wagon T-17x transmissions have a longer stickout AFAIK. IIRC the V6 bell is the standard GM part (same as the passenger car app), and there's info about adapting GM engines to Ford transmissions on the Novak site: http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/ford_to_gm.htm I think the only differnces between the T-18 info there and the T-176 will be the spline count, input shaft diameter, and pilot diameter. If different, these should be easy to overcome by choosing the right disk and pilot bushing.
     
  5. Dec 1, 2006
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Tim gave very accurate and concise info. One thing I'd like to add on the T-176 trans is the pilot area on the trans input is longer than on the Ford Toploaders due to the depth of where the crank pilot bushing sits in the AMC motors. This will need to be cut back and chamfered or it will hit the crank. This holds true for the the T-150 when going to a GM motor as well. Nickmil
     
  6. Dec 1, 2006
    cj-john

    cj-john Member

    Galveston, IN.
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    Thanks guys, looks like a little simple machine work and I'm driving around in granny gear. Since it's blowing snow here I guess I can start my winter project.
     
  7. Dec 1, 2006
    John Strenk

    John Strenk Member

    Shalersville, Ohio
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    I swapped my T-150 for a T-177/dana 300 about 2 years ago in my 76 CJ5. It couldn't be easier. But.. You do have to shorten the rear drive shaft and lengthen the fron one. Even the T-17X leaves you with a short driveshaft in the rear so if your running a big lift your going to have to run a double cardan drive shaft in the rear.

    The tranny cover will have to be modified a little bit. I just made a new one for mine.

    Also you may have to change the yokes as the Dana 300 might have the strap type yoke were as the Dana 20 uses u-bolt style clamp. Fortunatly one of my D-20 T-cases had the right spline count so I just swapped yokes. Some Dana 20's had a 10 count spline and won't fit.

    Since my jeep spends 95% of the time on the road, it's been a great swap. I don't have the steep first of the T-18a but it's almost never need for my use, snowplowing
     
  8. Dec 1, 2006
    pathkiller

    pathkiller Member

    Lorton, VA
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    I swapped a T-14/Dana 20 in my 74 for a T-176/D300 from a 1980 CJ-5 about 15 years ago. It was really easy. I even got the driveshafts from the donor and they were the right length. I used my old crossmember as I recall and didn't even have to drill new holes. Simple as pie.
     
  9. Dec 2, 2006
    cj-john

    cj-john Member

    Galveston, IN.
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    That sounds great. I already planned on drive shafts. I really don't run much lift so I should be good with the rear drive angle. My main concern was the trans input shaft. I did a little research on Novak and it looks like they are the same size and spline. I have to turn a little diameter off the nose cone to fit the bell housing hole and throw out bearing. If thats all I get into it will be some sort of miracle!
     
  10. Dec 4, 2006
    sac13

    sac13 Come oooonnnnn summer....

    Shelby Township, MI
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    Thanks for all the info guys. It sounds like swapping in a T-176 / Dana 300 may be the way to go. I tore the trans apart this weekend and it doesn't look as bad as I thought. I need to replace the sycros and 2nd gear. Everything else looks fine. This may be a good project for next winter. Thanks again.
     
  11. Dec 4, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    There is a downside to the T-17x - they aren't as strong or durable as the bona fide truck transmissions. According to Nick, they do sometimes break the mainshaft around where it necks down to meet the bull gear. He can comment on this if he stops by. The shift tops wear out too, jamming the transmission in gear. The replacement shift tops are available AFAIK.
     
  12. Dec 4, 2006
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Again Timgr is right on the money. I've rebuilt several T17x trannys that were still serviceable but came in with the output broken where they neck down and then the splines for the Dana 300 input start. Like Tim said also, the tops have a tendency to wear and the locating pins for the stick get loose and sloppy causing shifting issues also. Good used tops are getting harder to come by, at least around here because the Street rod guys are snatching them up to put on Ford Top loader 4 speeds so they have a top shifter instead of the external shift linkage. Nickmil
     
  13. Dec 4, 2006
    jayhawkclint

    jayhawkclint ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Oklahoma City, USA
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    Tim, trying to learn all these little odds and ends for when I'm scrounging. That Ford 2wd T-18 I've found to be somewhat plentiful, even here in little ol' Lawrence. I'm purdy sure it has a 6.5" stick-out. Are the AMC bells longer than the Ford bells, maybe somewhere in the vacinity of 7-1/4" stick-out or so? Reason I'm asking is because for a while I thought the intermediates used a 151 4cyl, which I'm pretty sure is a GM engine. I'm wondering what they did with the bell for that motor, and if it could be used (the bell, not the motor) for other swaps, such as a 2wd Ford trans to GM motor.
     
  14. Dec 4, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Hi Clint - I hope you don't mind that I correct your terminology. The "Intermediates" were only produced from 1972 through 1975. They are called that because they came between the Willys-derived CJ5 (from 55-71) and the AMC complete redesign in 1976. They are essentially a stretched Willys CJ with AMC engines and some upgrades that were already popular by that time (steering, brakes).

    The Intermediate bell is not bolt-up compatible with the Ford transmissions. Also, the 151 was used later, around 1981 or so, and was not used in intermediates. The intermediates only came with the 232, 258 or 304 engine.

    In 1976, Jeep replaced the Borg-Warner 3-speeds in CJs with the Tremac T-150, which is essentially a Ford 3-speed transmission. Using the T-150 bell, you can adapt any of the unified-pattern AMC-Jeep engines (232 after mid 1970, 258, 304, 360, 401) to most Ford passenger car and light truck transmissions. The T-176 bell, used later, is the same as the T-150 bell.

    The other late CJ engines (151 and 150) are not the unified AMC pattern and you cannot use the T-150/T-176 bell to adapt them to other Ford transmissions (ie T-18). These engines were used with weak transmissions like the SR4, T-4 and T-5. The 151 is a SBC (?) pattern, and the 150 is the 60 degree (?) Cheb V6. Again IIRC, the 151 bell can be used to mate a SBC to a SR-4 or T-4, but it's not a good swap becasue the stock transmission is marginal even for the 151.

    There's lots of info on www.jeeptech.com about this, but it seems to be off-line currently.
     
  15. Dec 4, 2006
    jayhawkclint

    jayhawkclint ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

    Oklahoma City, USA
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    Okay, just so that I understand you clearly, the 151 bell would bolt to 90deg GM engines like the 4.3, but would not bolt to any kind of Ford trans that would be worth doing, like the 2wd T-18. For some reason I thought those trans (T-4 especially) were still Tremec models, and so the trans end of the bell pattern might bolt up to a Ford.
     
  16. Dec 4, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    It's a stretch for me to comment about the 151 stuff, but it's my understanding that the SR-4, T-4 and T-5 bellhousings use the same casting as the T150 and T-176, but have a different pattern. This means that they can be drilled to accept a Ford transmission, but they won't bolt up to a Ford transmission.

    The T-5 is a Tremac, so I'd presume the SR-4 and T-4 are too.
     
  17. Dec 4, 2006
    jayhawkclint

    jayhawkclint ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

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    Thanks Tim.
     
  18. Dec 5, 2006
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    You're welcome CLint. However, the previous bit about the 151 bell casting is likely wrong. I'm pretty sure that the same casting is used for the T-150, SR-4, T-4 etc. mated to the AMC unified pattern. However, the 151 uses a different bell pattern (the 90 degree Chevy type), so it doesn't neccessarily have to use a similar casting to the Ford-derived transmissions. I don't think it's much of an issue anyway, because a Ford transmission is pretty easy to adapt to a GM bell according to Novak http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/ford_to_gm.htm

    Lots of gooood stuff on the Novak site - worth browsing and rebrowsing.
     
  19. Dec 5, 2006
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Just to clarify the 151 bellhousing question, it can be drilled and tapped to bolt up a Ford T-18. The ones I've seen and done have had the bosses cast in them just like the unified AMC bellhousings. So, if you find a 151 bellhousing from an '80's CJ, you can drill and tap the back half to accept a Ford T-18 or NP 435. I've done it and it works. The depth is correct for the Ford Gas motor input shaft also. Nickmil
     
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