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Dj-5c Restoration - 3s + 1w

Discussion in 'Intermediate CJ-5/6/7/8' started by Jeff Bromberger, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Mar 18, 2020
    timgr

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    Yes, that's typical. If you transfer the gear, you have to pay attention to the end play (shims between the gear and body) and the depth of the gear, as well as the gear mesh. Supposedly the gear from a Motorcraft AMC V8 distributor can go on a 230/250 HEI distributor. I have one around somewhere. Maybe the 232 gear works too, don't know. Parts book says it's different.
     
  2. Mar 18, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    took one off of the 232 put it on a coil in cap 250 l6 chevy distributor ,currently running it in the wifes 258. no idea why the book would list a different part for the 232
     
  3. Mar 19, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    So, I'll try to bring this back around. Instead of me keeping my current AMC distributor, I can go for one that's designed for the Chevy 250, but I have to transfer the drive gear. But what about the 3rd party one that I'd mentioned a few posts ago. If I am going to blow the money and put a coil in cap solution in place, has anybody used the one that Amazon has on sale? :waiting:

    And, please, don't forget the other questions - they deserve some time in the light, too!
     
  4. Mar 19, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    Rtv for the oil pan ends, permatex 2 for the others the water jacket ones I use permatex Teflon thread sealer Only a little on any electric senders as most senders need a ground provided by the block.
     
  5. Mar 19, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    They are the same for the 232 and 258. I wrote 232 because that's what the OP is working with. They are a different PN from the V8s.

    Online articles claim the AMC V8 gear will fit on the 194/230/250 Chevy distributor, but don't say anything about the AMC 232/258 gear AFAIK. The catalog gives a different gear part number for 6 different applications - 232/258, V8 with Delco, Prestolite, Motorcraft.

    Regarding the gaskets, seems like everybody has their own system. My choice would be to glue the gasket to the pan with something like High-Tack and then put a thin coat of RTV on the block sealing surface. This makes a field repair possible where you reuse the gasket, and keeps the gasket from sliding around when you assemble. A bit of oil on the block helps to release the gasket at disassembly. It's important that the pan not be distorted by previous over-tightening. Follow the TSM torque spec. Pretty sure the rubber ends are supposed to get a dab of RTV - check the FelPro box.

    Pretty sure I use teflon tape on CTOs. No sealant on senders to ensure electrical contact. Should not be needed IMO.

    There are numerous choices for ignition for AMC engines. My 258 is still running to original Prestolite ignition with a Napa module (knock on wood). New cap, wires, etc. when first purchased but nothing since. Cleaned the connectors and added a little dielectric grease to inhibit corrosion. Not really a fan of the HEI distributors, though I picked one up from a 250 G10 at a junkyard more than a decade ago. Maybe I'll use it if my Prestolite goes kaputt. Really, the 232/258 is such a putt-putt motor that ignition upgrades are a poor value IMO. I'd spiff up the Delco and use it. It's basically a Chevy distributor, and I expect you can buy all the parts to fix it. Delco vacuum advance, Delco bushings, etc. etc. Way simpler than what you've done so far.

    Crown Automotive-Distributor Vacuum Advance-J8122350
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  6. Mar 19, 2020
    sterlclan

    sterlclan Member 2022 Sponsor

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    The main benefit for me was easier starting and no points replacement.as long as it’s a Delco it came off it will fit the hei the motorcraft or autolite has a smaller shaft
     
  7. Mar 20, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    That's gonna be one issue. Both the oil pan and the rocker cover are warped because of bad torque values. I have new bolts with correct size washers, so maybe that'll help a bit. I can tap out dimples at the screw holes, but I am totally paranoid about trying to "bend" the parts back into square.

    I decided to try that HEI distributor setup. Worst case is that it doesn't work/fit, and then it goes back. I still have my original distributor here, and I can either rebuild it, or I can hit a junkyard around the Dallas area for an older Chevy distributor. Options in the time of viral panic - always a good thing.

    I went with the three port CTO, but I can see that I am still going to have to figure out exactly where I want vacuum routing to go. The carb has two vac ports (one very low, the other mid way up), the intake manifold has a large port (for the PCV valve) and a tiny one over cylinder 6 (which is crimped shut). And I still have the charcoal can, too. I figure that vacuum is vacuum, so as long as it is all connected and has no leaks, I will be good.

    When it comes down to the oil pan gasket, I don't know whether it is better to tack it to the pan or to the engine block. Only one side is getting the glue, so to speak. Do I want the gasket to stay on the block, or to come along with the pan? If I do everything carefully enough and I cross my fingers, then I will never have to dismantle it again. But, just in case, I have to be paranoid for those emergency fixes, no?

    Almost done painting the remaining odds and ends of parts - the engine mounts, timing cover, alternator bracket, thermostat housing, fan pulley and aux pulley for the dampener. I have two different pulleys for the fan/water pump. One is shallow, one deep. I'll have to see which one sync's up with the dampener (or the bolt on extra pulley). I also want to paint the timing notch on the pulley (and maybe on the cover) with a contrasting color just so that it always shows up. Time for Testor's Bright Red Enamel. One bottle should do me a lifetime's worth. I'd use cheap nail polish, but I am afraid the life expectancy won't be that long.
     
  8. Mar 27, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Each day, we're getting closer!

    The magic 11/32-24 nuts came in from Summit. Went through each of the connecting rod journals with PlastiGage, and they all came in cleanly within specs. Cleaned off the green goo, dropped on more assembly lube, put on the cap (again) and torqued down as per the TSM. Even though this took a lot of time, it was good to get past this. We're on a roll.

    The camshaft went in like buttah. Lots of assembly lube on the bearings makes it slip around like it should.

    Oil pump was next. Technically, this was an easy step, but I needed a hand or two from my beautiful bride to get the new pickup tube into the body. Damn, that was a challenge. I don't have the magic J-21882 tool, so I had to make due with a wrench that sat the same way and worked well. Oddly enough, using a Melling pump and sump pickup tube, the support on the pickup does not reach the bolt on the pump to secure it! I saw this on the old pump that I'd pulled out of the block before it was reconditioned, but I thought it was in error. Nope - that's the way it is right from the factory. What can a guy do, right?

    Oil pan was fun. I put the Permatex RTV on the block and used it to stick the two gasket sides. The rear rubber seal also got the treatment. Waited the required hour after installation before putting the torque to the bolts. Seems easy enough. I gotta say that I was totally in awe over how much engine is exposed through the timing cover. I mean, I must have seen it all when I took it apart, but still, you are left looking in awe at all of that stuff hidden away behind an inexpensive cast metal cover...

    Next, we invert the engine right side up and the new timing set goes on.
    Timing_Chain.jpg

    Started with turning the crank to TDC, and this brought the Woodruff key right to the top. Bingo. This chain is much tighter than the old one was - no slop to be found anywhere. Lined up the two magic dimples for timing, and then did the other "measurement" for the 15 pins (or 7.5 links) just so I knew that I was where I needed to be. Torqued the bolt on the camshaft. Done.

    Bust out the assembly lube, as it's now time for the lifters! Slathered those down with the red slime and lowered them into place:
    Lifters.jpg

    They just kinda oozed down into their sockets. Nothing to complain about there. The box they came in said I wasn't supposed to soak them in oil - something to do with the center? - so I didn't.

    And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is basically your complete Short Block. :bananatool:
     
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  9. Mar 27, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Just a quick hit here - does anybody have a clear picture on how to mount the alternator bracket to the timing chain cover? I have put the studs back in the holes they came from, but I can't get that bracket to mount for beans. This is for the Delco-Remy alternator, of course. The older Motorola alternator bolted onto the driver's side of the block, at the water pump level.

    Thanks!
     
  10. Mar 27, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    The '74 brackets are different from the '75 brackets. There was a major change for '75, moving the power steering pump to the driver's side. Which setup are you using?

    You say Delco, so you must mean 1975. Working on it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2020
  11. Mar 27, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    Does this help?

    75CJalternatorScrap (600 x 357).jpg

    I also have a '77 258 which should be the same as a '75. Not sure that helps much, but I could show that with some instruction about what's important.
     
  12. Mar 27, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Oh so close! It shows half the solution, yet I still need to see where that bracket fits on the engine. Tonight, I can mount the alternator and play with my options.

    You, once again, are a life saver.
     
  13. Mar 27, 2020
    Jw60

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    :watch:
    Soo glad to see posts that don't mention symptoms of heat stroke and exhaustion.
    Keep up the good work! (y)
     
  14. Mar 27, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    It has been in the high-80's for the last few days. I am hustling my derriere so that I am not stuck doing stuff when it hits 90+ weather.

    I want to put in a new wiring harness, and then newish seats. Engine should be done before Monday and then the transmission is next on the block. Everything else is done, more or less.

    I get to ride (finally) this summer.
     
  15. Mar 28, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Today's update...

    Bolting the head on was a breeze. Head gasket went in place, head on top, and then 14 new Grade 8 bolts from Fastenal torqued down to a number I've never heard of before! That was a workout.

    The timing chain cover - what a problem. Started last night with it. Got the lower rubber seal in place with Permatex #2, filled in the front of the oil pan with Permatex RTV and then put 'em together. And they didn't wanna play nice. It took 2 hours to get everything lined up, or so I thought. I got all of the bolts in from the bottom and then almost all of them from the front. One stupid bolt refuses to go into it's hole - and it's the very last one on the right, down under the timing tube. Went to bed without it - it was a What The F moment. This is the first time that something really bothered me. Screw it - it's one screw and there is a lot of gasket to hold everything down.

    Couldn't sleep last night, don't know why. This was one of the things that came into my mind. I decided that I was gonna pry the whole damn thing apart and try again.

    Woke up and took all of the bolts out of the timing cover again. And I could not budge the part by hand. It was glued in tight. I guess that's my message from above. Bolts went back in as-is.

    Pushrods, rockers, arms and bridges were wiped clean and put in place. Assembly Lube on the ends of the pushrods, as well as all over the rocker areas and the tops of the valves where the arms hit them. New bolts and torqued into place. Placed the cover on top, just for appearances.

    Installed the gas pump, water pump and thermostat. Pulled one plug and installed the front 3-port CTO. Identified the second plug to put the 2-port CTO.

    Harmonic Dampener. Welcome to the world of Thor and his Deadblow Mallet. Took me another hour of gentle domination to get the pulley to move into place. And that's with assembly lube to ease the task. After 60 minutes, I was close enough that I could use the main bolt to tighten the pulley down the last bit. Whoo - so glad that I'm done with that.

    Mounted the bracket and Delco Alternator. With this in place, I could easily see that I need to use the auxiliary pulley on the crankshaft as well as use the shallow pulley/spacer on the water pump.

    Ladies and Gentlemen: it's basically done.
    Basic_Finish_Front.jpg
    Basic_Finish_Left.jpg
    Basic_Finish_Right.jpg

    Left to do: Second CTO / Paint and Install Fan / Fan Belt / Manifolds (coming next) / Prime Oil System / Distributor and Plugs. All of this is a one day job, as long as I start painting tonight.

    Transmission starts next week, and in between breaks, I will plumb the engine's vacuum and fuel systems. I want this to be a simple drop in when that day comes.

    PS: Fun factoid. The TSM says that I'm supposed to torque down the bolt that holds the dampener with 50 ft-lbs. Long before I reach that value, I am turning over the engine. That's making me happy!
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
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  16. Mar 29, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    The gods giveth... The gods taketh away...

    Attaching the intake to the exhaust manifold and I snapped one of the studs. It's so deep in the manifold that I'm bringing it to the machine shop tomorrow and having them drill it out. Funny, because I hadn't applied any torque to the nut and the damn thing just went *POP* and that was it.

    Meh.
     
  17. Mar 31, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    Talk to me about gauges for a minute. The DJ5 dash has three gauges out from the factory. We've got the main Speedometer/Odometer with the fuel and temp insets. We have a standalone oil pressure sensor that has a tiny tube going to it. And we have the accursed ammeter.

    The ammeter has a lead that comes IN from the alternator. The OUT goes to a fusible link the solenoid, where it is junctioned to the battery. If I were "smart," I would take the lead straight from the alternator, avoid the ammeter, and go straight to the fusible link. This way, it's one solid wire and it's all under the hood with no trips into the user space. But there are three other wires (according to the drawing) on that Input lead. There are:
    • 58 Brown to the fuse box
    • 22 Red/White to Battery side of Ignition Switch
    • 21 Red/White to the Lights switch
    Circuit 58 is the Battery Feed to the fuses, and it covers the Dome Light (9 amp fuse) and 4-way flashers (20 amp fuse). I guess that I can wire this straight to the battery, too. Is 14 gauge wire enough for this?

    Circuit 22 going to the ignition switch. Why? [EDIT: This is the power that goes to the coil, via the Neutral Safety Switch. You need this or nothing runs.]

    And Circuit 21? Shouldn't that get power from someplace other than the alternator? [EDIT: Lights are something that are always available, whether or not the engine is running. It's convenient to use this spot to "power" the lights.]

    Finally, if I wanted to replace that with a voltmeter, where's the best place to wire that in to the circuit tree?
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
  18. Mar 31, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    This is a drawing I made for a Wagoneer forum - above is before (with ammeter) and below is after (ammeter removed and replaced by voltmeter, not shown).

    [​IMG]

    The colors won't necessarily match (It's from the '82 diagram for my J20). This is how all ammeters work - all the charging current goes up to the dash, where it's tapped off to run the dash and lights. The ammeter is a shunt (a piece of wire with calibrated resistance) which has a sensitive voltmeter across it. The current through the shunt resistance makes a voltage by Ohm's law. This voltage can be positive or negative, depending on the direction of current (charge or discharge).

    The fusible links are there to protect the Jeep from the battery. The fusible link is the 14ga wire in the above drawing. When the ammeter is removed (or replaced by a voltmeter), you have two paths where the battery can be shorted to ground - thus you need two fusible links.

    Connect your voltmeter to any convenient switched source under the dash. You want it to be off when the ignition is off, otherwise it's just looking at the system voltage. There might be a slight difference depending on where you connect it, but any notable change will be large compared to any difference. You are looking to see that the alternator holds the system voltage above the cell potential of the battery, 12.6V. Typically you'll see 13.5V or 14V when all is well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020
  19. Mar 31, 2020
    Jeff Bromberger

    Jeff Bromberger Quarantined in the Garage

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    That picture makes 100% sense.

    Two questions left: First, can I buy Fusible Links (and this presumes that they have different amperage ratings). Second, can I just replace this with a simple fuse? Fuses are easy to replace in the parking lot...
     
  20. Apr 1, 2020
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor

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    They are typically sized by the size of wire they protect. 14ga for 10ga wire, 12 for 8, 10 for 6, etc.

    I bought mine from Amazon - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001BXR9L8/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 - likely cheaper places, but Amazon was convenient. Your local Napa maybe?

    Lots of options - Electrical Fuse Fusible Link Parts | RockAuto - not a familiar part because they are so seldom replaced.

    Not something you'd routinely replace. They are meant to protect the Jeep from the battery in a catastrophe like a wreck. All the cars have them these days. How often do you find someone replacing their fusible link? I suppose you could fit a fuse... really, if you have a blown fusible link, you have a big problem and should not be uncritically popping in a new fuse.

    A bit more about fusible links - Catalog
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
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