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Dauntless Head Removal

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by chief1983, Oct 7, 2016.

  1. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    Dashpot removed, spring disconnected.

    [​IMG]

    Goes back on just like this.

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    Next, the throttle. This just pops off with a light tug.

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    Used a paperclip to keep this guy out of the way for now. Maybe there's a better way but this worked.

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    Next, the air filter mount.

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    Has different screws, I should probably look into getting the right mounting hardware for this. If anyone knows what I should look for, maybe something in the True Value bins, I'm all ears. Nothing about either of these feels stock to me.

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    Goes back on with this orientation, only had screws in two of the holes.

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    Used the holes that are visibly open in this photo (one barely visible in the upper right).

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    Next, the choke cable. I loosened both the mounting bracket and the little block where the cable is attached. I seem to be missing a bolt/nut to retain the cable on the bracket. Might be the nut I found behind the manifold. This assembly has been stiff to move since my rebuild, I'll probably tear into the carb again and try to fix that. Feels like it binds.

    [​IMG]

    Tucked it behind some other things over here.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  2. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    Remove the carburetor vacuum advance (before you loosen the bolts and try to pick up the carburetor, unlike how I did it).

    [​IMG]

    Also remove the PCV (?) hose, either from the carb, the valve cover, or both.

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    At this point, I may not have had to remove the carburetor to get the manifold off. But I plan to do some cleanup on the manifold, and work on the carb, so off it came. If you just need the manifold off you could skip this (per the FSM) and skip this step.

    Loosened the four bolts holding the carburetor down and picked up the entire assembly. Sockets won't help you here.

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    Not sure what this is for but disconnect it.

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    Getting close now. Just a few more odds and ends to disconnect.

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    Nasty hose removed. After loosening and sliding back the worm clamps, I found that just breaking the bond with a small flathead screwdriver worked well enough, and even though it sounded like the hose were cracking I think it was just the filth inside of them. Running the blade around the inside of the hose's lip while applying gentle force on the hose got it off with no cussing involved.

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    Another view. I believe it has slots to use a sturdy flatedge to install this fitting into the manifold. Not sure it's strong enough to use them to get it back out, would probably need to use vise grips for that. And maybe a vise. At least I _think_ this is a separate piece screwed into the manifold, I'll need to clean it up some to be sure.

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    Did this bracket next while I decided how to proceed. It's one of the two unique bolts on my manifold, as it has threads sticking out of its head.

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    Here it is with the nut spun on just a bit. See that it has the toothed washer built into the nut.

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    About this time, you may be needing to get the ignition coil out of the way if you haven't already. Mine was already unmounted so the rest of its removal is below.

    The other heater core hose came off with a similar effort.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  3. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    Tucked the pair up under the hood out of the way.

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    Pulled the wires off the ignition coil so I could get it out of the way.

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    Tucked one wire over the alternator.

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    And the red one on the other side of the alternator.

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    Don't forget the temp sender wire. I put the nut back on the sender to keep track of it.

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    This end of the thermostat bypass hose will have to be removed too. Screwdriver helped here too, but it was the toughest of the coolant hoses I removed. Save for the heater core ones which I gave up on for fear of breaking them off.

    [​IMG]

    About this time, I noticed something that you may have noticed in some earlier photos. Couple of disconnected wires. Not sure how long ago they broke, hope they're not too important. Never fear though, auto electrical is one thing I'm pretty decent at repairing.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  4. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    First manifold bolt removed. Was wet. Not sure if these bolts are supposed to go through into wet passages or if the manifold gasket leaked into this one.

    [​IMG]

    This is the other unique manifold bolt. It doesn't have a recessed head like the others and holds on the hook ring.

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    One more shot of the hose bracket retaining bolt, with the nut removed so we can remove the bolt from the manifold and head.

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    Don't think I forgot to remove anything, just need to pick it up now.

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    Well, that was easier said than done. It was somewhat bonded to everything else still, so I took a small prybar, and found a lip on the manifold where, with a small application of leverage, I got the seal to break free. Casting differences may not offer you the same lip I was able to find.

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    And after spilling some of the contents into the block, I got it off. It was due for an oil change anyway. There's probably a better way to lift that off without spilling the remaining coolant everywhere. The blackened passageway in the upper side in the photo looks to be terribly obstructred, way more than it should be. Am I right that there are oil passages through the manifold as well as the intake and coolant passages?

    [​IMG]

    Hard to see in this pick, but there was a lot of debris blocking this port that I had knocked out with my finger, and it actually looks like something is...growing in there. Gonna keep the garage door locked at night to be on the safe side.

    [​IMG]

    The next step will involve the removal of the driver's side head to see what's up with #1 and #3. I don't anticipate too many more steps other than removing the valve cover, rocker assembly, and possibly the fuel filter/pump heat shield from the head. Will be sure to get as many photos of that process.

    Edit: And the exhaust manifold. That's probably going to be the most fun.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  5. Oct 18, 2016
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    5,349
    No pics with your post.
     
    chief1983 likes this.
  6. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
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    116
    Weird, I posted on my pc and I see them on my phone. Maybe Google doesn't like the hotlinking after all.
     
  7. Oct 18, 2016
    jpflat2a

    jpflat2a what's that noise?

    Hermosa, SD
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2003
    Messages:
    8,513
    I can see them.
    I would pull the lifters out of the suspect cylinders first and inspect the lifter bottoms for wear.
     
    chief1983 likes this.
  8. Oct 18, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    Yeah I have been fixing them one image at a time. I had to add all my images to a shared album on Google Photos, then I can hotlink them successfully it seems. Good call on that, I was debating on pulling them at all. I guess once I have the rockers off I can pull the rods and then the lifters with the head in place still.

    Edit: Ok now all of my image posts in this thread have images I believe. Should be able to see them all the way back to the middle of page 2.
     
  9. Oct 19, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    Lots of corrosion in the cooling system........especially the areas that you first pulled off........looking at the passages in the block from the manifold side they don't look that corroded for some reason although you mention that some look as if there is something growing in there! At one time or another that water system looks as if it had been filled with well water that had minerals in it...............The Dirty Black port in the head is there to heat the manifold.........that port leads directly into the exhaust port...........it's dirty because at one time that motor was burning allot of oil which turned into carbon..........the port needs to be cleaned and there is also another on the opposite side .........there is also some rust stains in the lifter valley from a previous water leak probably from the head gasket. I am really amazed that the lifter valley is as clean as it looks...............doesn't seem to match up with the condition of the other parts.

    Not sure what your plans are but that looks like it needs to completely come apart , cleaned up some and then measured...........All of your original numbers for leak and compression surely point to the conclusion that your motor has issues and is not hardly a tune up away from being fixed. Perhaps , Rings , bearings , Camshaft , timing chain and valve job can all be contributing factors to the Problem.
     
  10. Oct 21, 2016
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
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    I agree with this. Hard to believe.
     
  11. Oct 21, 2016
    zootin

    zootin Member

    SW Oregon
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Hello,
    The small tube and fitting on the rear of the intake manifold has small diameter rubber tubing that goes through the firewall to the heater control assembly "dash pot".
    Also clean the "channel" in the front of the manifold where the front portion of the carb mounts. My 66 cj5/V6 had a lot of material in this area which I found when the carb was rebuilt.

    Frank
     
  12. Oct 21, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    This engine hasn't failed to confuse and amaze me yet. I pulled the heads last night. Don't have a full set of pics yet as the phone died before actually getting to the head itself.

    Rocker arm assembly removed, it's wrapped in towels sitting on a shelf for now.

    [​IMG]

    Valley of the lifters. Started with just the 4 on the offending cylinders, then decided I might as well pull the rods and lifters for the entire side, not hard to put them back in if they don't need any work and I can polish the lifter holes while they're out. The lifters lifted out by the rods just due to the oil suction. None were stuck. When I get pics of them tonight, maybe you can tell if these look non-original, because I feel they're in wonderful shape.

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    The last two lifter holes for #5

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    The bracket and exhaust manifold are all that's left. I didn't get enough pics of the exhaust manifold process as I wish I could have, but it definitely had some tricks to it. If doing it again, I would probably start with the hardest bolt, and leave one in a bit on one side while loosening the last bolt on the other side to keep the manifold from putting the bolt in a bind and possibly damaging the threads.

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    Tucked the plug cables back out of the way.

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    Cables removed. I have no dipstick tube on this model, and the little round plate isn't fixed into place on my dipstick, so I'm pretty sure it's no longer accurate. I should get that fixed.

    Not sure what the little metal tabs are for around the exhaust manifold bolts. I had to bend the tabs back on each one to get a socket on the bolts. Need a breaker bar for a couple of these and the following head bolts. The last manifold bolt, #5's lower bolt, was the hardest by far as I had to do it blind. May be able to get to it from below but I think the steering would have been in the way. I had gotten good enough on the other 5 that this one wasn't all that bad. Blindly pried the metal tab back with the screwdriver while using the other hand to locate where to pry, and then blindly got the socket in place. The manifold had started to wiggle a bit which I think loosed this bolt up for me before I started trying to break it free as it was the easiest of the 6.

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    Apparently when I changed fuel filters, the new one doesn't fit snugly in the bracket, because the bracket just fell off when I undid the two bolts.

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    More pics to come of the disassembled parts, no further pics of the disassembly process unfortunately. When I got the bolts completely removed, the head would not come off the locator pins with the manifold in its position. I loosed the top nut connection the manifold to the exhaust some, which loosed its fitment and let it spin somewhat freely. It spun enough that I could slide the head off the pins and then straight up and out. This way I don't have to get to the other manifold to exhaust nut.

    What I'm confused and amazed about is, with my limited experience nothing looks bad or broken. The head gasket isn't cracked, that I can see, although one of the block to head passages looks like it used to be blocked by the gasket seems to have broken through. I'll have pics to clarify that tonight hopefully. The lifters seem to be in great condition. The cylinder walls look great to my naked eye (#5 was the only one up top when I took the head off so #1 and #3 could be easily inspected. The rods are all intact. On the head itself, the valves all look intact and seated correctly. Yet, #1 and #3 still definitely had a bad leak through the intake manifold and out the carburetor. Maybe tonight's pics will help shed some light on something I'm missing, because I'm now still as confused as before I did a compression test.
     
  13. Oct 21, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,784
    The metal tabs on the exhaust manifold bolts are just lock taps that hold the head of the bolt in place if it was to back off or loosen for any reason.

    Looks are deceiving on engine parts.........without the proper equipment to measure things , finding out whether a part is within tolerance or worn out can be difficult to the untrained eye. As far as your valves the most important part is the valve seat between the head and the valve which is hidden from view until until they are disassembled. Likewise cylinder wall to piston clearance can't be obtained until they are measured. Along with piston rings.

    It's good that you have previously identified leakage and low compression.............now you get to figure out what caused it.

    Take a look at this as it may be helpful for you to understand the process: Blueprint 225
     
  14. Oct 21, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
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    116
    Various shots of the cylinders and pistons

    [​IMG]

    #1 and #3

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    The exhaust manifold spun to the side a bit so I could remove the head

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    This manifold passageway probably shouldn't be anywhere near this clogged?

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    I just noticed that the water jackets in the back of the block, like the one that seemed to have some kind of growth in it, don't seem to go anywhere on this manifold design. On the ones with rear heater core connections, I suspect there is a passage through the back of the manifold?

    [​IMG]

    My set of lifters and pushrods, indexed.

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    Head bolts. Some where wet with oil, some were dry and seemingly oxidized white.

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    Rod #1I (#1 cylinder intake, E is exhaust)

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    Rocker end

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    Lifter end

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    Lifter #1I

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    Bottom of lifter #1I

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    Top

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Oct 21, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    Rod #3I - Rocker end

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    Lifter end

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    Lifter #3I

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    Side with oiler hole?

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    Bottom

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    Top

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    Lifter #5E

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    Bottom - #5E had a strange wear pattern compared to any of the others I've seen.

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    Lifter set

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    Rocker assembly

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    Top side of rocker assembly - didn't notice this one was so blurry

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Oct 21, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    The interesting part - the head assembly - #1 on right, intake side on top, exhaust on bottom.

    [​IMG]

    Head gasket - block side facing camera

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    Head side facing camera

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    Some more nastiness

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    I guess this is supposed to be round and not the shape on the gasket

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    #1 closeups

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    #3

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    #5

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Oct 21, 2016
    chief1983

    chief1983 Member

    Saint Charles, MO
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    116
    This passageway was corroded quite a bit with a layer that broke apart easily with this flathead poking into it.

    [​IMG]

    This is one of my concerns. This same passageway on the gasket appear to have at one point been blocked off intentionally. There are four similarly sized passages on the gasket, 2 are completely blocked, and the other showed signs that it was corroding through in a similar manner. I have no idea what this passage is or if it could be related to my intake leak problem, but it is between the two cylinders with low compression and bad leak test results (#1 and #3).

    [​IMG]

    Here is the other side (between #3 and #5), I tried to clean off debris and the gasket material was so brittle the hole started becoming larger. It was two tiny pinholes at first, the one started to grow as I scraped with the flathead gently to get the debris off.

    [​IMG]

    The head gasket appears to have at one point completely blocked these passages, but is now corroded through. I haven't been able to identify what they do, or how they could be related to my problem, but it is the only visible thing I see so far. I was hoping not to have to disassemble the valves unless the valves were obviously damaged, but if nothing here looks like my problem then I guess that's the next step. I just don't have a spring compressor on hand at the moment, so far I've gotten by without acquiring or renting more tools than I already had, aside from the leakdown tester. But I suppose it's time I added the compressor to my kit. My bike is due for a top end rebuild soon too. I hear the style that clamps to the opposite side of the head like a big C clamp is preferred?
     
  18. Oct 22, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
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    3,784
    Had this motor been previously running before you had these issues ? Looking at the face of those lifters they seem awful dirty for something that had been running?

    Best to take those gaskets and lay them back on the block where they came from and then compare the passages both on the head and block..............

    I didn't see anything that stuck out in the way of a head gasket failure but pictures are deceiving ............If your going to rebuild this the balance of the tear down can be done by the re-builders.............the heads are of no issue as a valve job and perhaps some new valve springs and seals will get those back in shape.............the block needs to be measured and from what I can see this motor looks like it's seen better days and is probably in need of a complete re-build. Boil the block , Bore the block , new pistons, re-condition the rods, turn the crank, new cam and lifters, timing chain and gears , oil pump and perhaps front cover, new rod , main & cam bearings, gasket set.
     
  19. Oct 22, 2016
    Dauntless1971

    Dauntless1971 Member

    Bend, OR
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    227
    I feel real guilty of wasted parts money, after seeing how you marked each push rod. The other day when I started a tear down of bad/poor running 231 I chucked the push rods right in the garbage without giving a second thought.
     
  20. Oct 22, 2016
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    cordele, Ga.
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    That 1E lifter looks about 1/4" longer than the others or is that just the picture?
     
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