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D18 rebuild started........

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by wheelie, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. Apr 1, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Make sure the seal is pressed/driven to the bottom of the output housing bore. If not the dust shield will hit the seal locking things up solid. Btdt and have had to diagnose others with the same issue.


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  2. Apr 17, 2013
    wheelie

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    Repair sleeves came in yesterday. Looks easy enough. Big box for such a little part. I guess the felt needs to be put in place before installing the sleeve. Looks like the rolled end of the sleeve would booger up the felt if I tried to slip it over afterward.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2013
  3. Apr 17, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

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    I don't use the felt. It's a vestige from the days of leather seals where the felt kept oil against the leather to keep it from drying out. Not really necessary with today's neoprene/nitrile, etc seals.


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  4. Apr 17, 2013
    wheelie

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    Hmmm. OK. So, just tap the sleeve on until it's seated against the dust shield, right? And a thin smear of, like Permatex, on the yoke before tapping the sleeve over it?
     
  5. Apr 17, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Kind of. I use red threadlocker so the sleeve can never come loose and it does act as a sealer. I install the sleeve on just far enough so the outer edge does not protrude on the bevel of the outer edge of the seal surface. I then lightly sand the edge of the sleeve so it is not sharp and will not cut the seal as the yoke is installed. The seal should be installed to the bottom of the housing bore. Keep in mind if the sleeve goes on too far the seal may not ride on the new seal surface. Also make sure sealer is on the splines during final assembly so oil does not follow the splines out causing a leak. I put the sealer on the inside of the yoke so it smears outward on the splines as the yoke is installed. If you put sealer on the shaft any excess gets pushed down into the bearing/race.
    I also use threadlocker on the output shaft threads during final assembly to make sure the nut does not come loose down the road.


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  6. Apr 18, 2013
    wheelie

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    Excellent. Thanks. New torque wrench is in it's way so, hopefully, I can get this, all but, finished up shortly. Then to the 4 speed rebuild. With any luck, it'll all go in sometime this summer.
     
  7. Aug 3, 2013
    wheelie

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    So, I'm back at this again. Installed the speedi sleeves as Nick instructed. Was surprised that they just slid on with little effort.
    [​IMG]

    Installed the front yoke awhile. Figured I'd get that done, then finish up setting the end play on the rear bearing, then install that yoke after making sure it's all good. Torqued to 220, as per instructions. I stopped at 200 to check the alignment of the castle nut for the cotter pin, and I was already past the notch. I was pretty sure I wouldn't get to the next notch by the time I hit 220 lb./ft. And, I didn't. After sitting there looking at it for a few minutes, I realized that I failed to line up the hole, drilled in the shaft for the cotter pin, with the hollow part of the yoke. I did use a drop of blue lock-tite on the threads.
    So, what should I do. Take it off and align the yoke with the hole in the shaft, that doesn't line up anyhow? Take it apart and toque it to like 180 (or wherever the hole lines up) and call it good? I'm pretty sure I can't get to the next slot in the castle nut unless I can John Goodman to come over and jump up and down on my torque wrench. But the wrench only goes to 250 anyhow. Or am I concerned about nothing again and the drop of lock-tite will suffice?
    [​IMG]

    And how about this yoke wrench? Long enough? I think so? First try with it. Needs a bit of work yet but, I like it so far.
    [​IMG]
     
  8. Aug 3, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

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    Nice job on the wrench Dave!
    One thing though, torque on that should be 120 lbs. ft. Torque not 220. Dana 20's and 300's are also 120 lbs. and they use a similar size nut. I quit using the cotter pins several years ago and use a bit of red threadlocker after making sure the threads are thoroughly cleaned and no residue. Blue works ok too. I know the output shafts that use the cotter pins and castle nuts are a finer thread and slightly different size than the ones that don't but 120 lbs. is sufficient.
    I'd suggest taking the nuts back off, inspecting the threads, and if ok reinstalling to 120 lbs. Even the transmission mainshaft nut is 150-170 lbs. the drive pinion nuts for the axles are 220 lbs. ft.
    Looking good man!


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  9. Aug 4, 2013
    wheelie

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    Hmmm. I was going by the instructions in Ludel's book which state 220 lb/ft.,....."Torque a new self locking nut, it's threads coated with Loctite 242, to a minimum of 220 lb-ft." This number is stated twice in his section on Dana 18 rebuild.

    Also, using Novak's instructions as a guide, which states "Install new output yoke seals and install yokes. Torque to 175 ft.lbs."

    I don't recall what the online instructions say over on the, I think it was the 3A page. Can't seem to find a torque value in the FSM.

    In any case, I will remove the nut, clean and inspect, and reinstall. I'll probably use a cotter pin just for my peace of mind. I like the sound of 120 better.

    This makes me wonder, though. I wonder if this is why the end of the shaft broke off, initially. If you recall, the old 'case, the rear output shaft broke, right at the base of the threads. I don't think I did it as, I don't recall ever having the rear drive flange off of that case. The shop that originally rebuilt it would have done it, perhaps.

    As a side note to anyone who thinking of having a case rebuilt, or doing it themselves: I feel very confident that I am doing a better job than the shop that rebuilt my original case, thanks completely to the guidance of the professionals right here on ECJ5. After getting this far through it, measuring the parts the shop put back in my case, etc., etc., I think this case will be excellent. Not that the old one didn't work well enough for a while. But, honestly, it had less than like 10k on it, I think. Anyhow, just do it. It's not nearly as bad a job as one might think. Even when you're a fuss-bucket like me.
     
  10. Aug 4, 2013
    wheelie

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    Hmmm. I was going by the instructions in Ludel's book which state 220 lb/ft.,....."Torque a new self locking nut, it's threads coated with Loctite 242, to a minimum of 220 lb-ft." This number is stated twice in his section on Dana 18 rebuild.

    Also, using Novak's instructions as a guide, which states "Install new output yoke seals and install yokes. Torque to 175 ft.lbs."

    I don't recall what the online instructions say over on the, I think it was the 3A page. Can't seem to find a torque value in the FSM.

    In any case, I will remove the nut, clean and inspect, and reinstall. I'll probably use a cotter pin just for my peace of mind. I like the sound of 120 better.

    This makes me wonder, though. I wonder if this is why the end of the shaft broke off, initially. If you recall, the old 'case, the rear output shaft broke, right at the base of the threads. I don't think I did it as, I don't recall ever having the rear drive flange off of that case. The shop that originally rebuilt it would have done it, perhaps.

    As a side note to anyone who thinking of having a case rebuilt, or doing it themselves: I feel very confident that I am doing a better job than the shop that rebuilt my original case, thanks completely to the guidance of the professionals right here on ECJ5. After getting this far through it, measuring the parts the shop put back in my case, etc., etc., I think this case will be excellent. Not that the old one didn't work well enough for a while. But, honestly, it had less than like 10k on it, I think. Anyhow, just do it. It's not nearly as bad a job as one might think. Even when you're a fuss-bucket like me.

    ed. Rick Stiver's guide was the online resource. Can't find it anywhere now. A shame. It was a nice writeup.
     
  11. Aug 4, 2013
    wheelie

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    Hmmm. I was going by the instructions in Ludel's book which state 220 lb/ft.,....."Torque a new self locking nut, it's threads coated with Loctite 242, to a minimum of 220 lb-ft." This number is stated twice in his section on Dana 18 rebuild.

    Also, using Novak's instructions as a guide, which states "Install new output yoke seals and install yokes. Torque to 175 ft.lbs."

    I don't recall what the online instructions say over on the, I think it was the 3A page. Can't seem to find a torque value in the FSM.

    In any case, I will remove the nut, clean and inspect, and reinstall. I'll probably use a cotter pin just for my peace of mind. I like the sound of 120 better.

    This makes me wonder, though. I wonder if this is why the end of the shaft broke off, initially. If you recall, the old 'case, the rear output shaft broke, right at the base of the threads. I don't think I did it as, I don't recall ever having the rear drive flange off of that case. The shop that originally rebuilt it would have done it, perhaps.

    As a side note to anyone who thinking of having a case rebuilt, or doing it themselves: I feel very confident that I am doing a better job than the shop that rebuilt my original case, thanks completely to the guidance of the professionals right here on ECJ5. After getting this far through it, measuring the parts the shop put back in my case, etc., etc., I think this case will be excellent. Not that the old one didn't work well enough for a while. But, honestly, it had less than like 10k on it, I think. Anyhow, just do it. It's not nearly as bad a job as one might think. Even when you're a fuss-bucket like me.

    ed. Rick Stiver's guide was the online resource. http://www.cj3apage.com/index/Tech_Tips/Model 18 Rebuild.htm
    He puts the torque value at 100-120.
     
  12. Aug 5, 2013
    wheelie

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    OK. Removed the nut, cleaned and inspected (no visible damage), put a good drop of red lock-tite on the threads and torqued the nut to 120. Seems like a lot less than 220. Like, 100 lb/ft less.:oops: Much easier to do.

    I decided to NOT remove the yoke so as not to risk damage to the seal and having to re-seal the splines. I just removed and replaced the nut. No cotter pin. Counting on the thread locker.

    Flipped the case over and went to work setting the end, again. Added 2 thin (.003) shims, torqued the bearing cap as instructions indicate, to 30 lb/ft and measured the end play at .007. A bit loose for my liking.

    Nick, I recall you suggesting that I install and torque both (?) yokes, then do a final check on the endplay. I don't see how the installation of the rear yoke would impact the reading. Am I missing something obvious or, can I move forward with final assembly at this point? If I must install the rear yoke, should the seal be in place or, can I wait for final assembly time to install that?

    I intend to remove one of the .003 shims to put me at about .004, plus whatever the spray on sealant, between the shims, adds. Thinking I'll be around .005.

    Finally, do the shift rail seals get driven to the bottom of their bore like the other seals?

    Seeing light at the end of the tunnel now. Last thing to really do will be installing the poppets and springs, and those shift rail seals. Then I'll add the girdle and pan and I'm done until it gets installed. On to the T18 rebuild next. Hoping that doesn't so long.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  13. Aug 6, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Trust me, install both yokes and check endplay. It can change dramatically. Did one today and it changed .004". Usually it causes the endplay to increase. The yoke pulls the bearing and shaft tight and typically changes a bit. I make my settings then Install the seal during my final assembly so it doesn't get damaged or affect my endplay readings. The drag from the seal can affect it by making it hard to get accurate readings. Btdt and got bit by it about 17 years ago when I had to redo a transfer case for free.
    .007" is too much. I like.000"- .002" With .002" being preferable. a touch more is ok but not much more. I don't like more than .003"-.004". Remember the bearing and race will wear in fairly quickly and endplay will increase.

    I drive the seals to the bottom of the bores but flush is fine. I've found there are variations in seal thicknesses so this may dictate how deep they are installed. Make sure you put assembly lube on the rubber portion. I pack the back side of the seal with trans assembly lube or Vaseline to keep the garter spring from popping off. Make sure you put a thin coat of sealer on the detent plug threads or you may end up with a small leak past the threads. I have run into this occasionally.

    Check all seal bores for gouges. If they are gouged at all put a thin coat of RTV in the bore then drive the seal in. This causes the sealer to build up in the gouges and seal up. If you put it on the seal the excess smears off and will not fill the gouge. I also put sealer on the splines of the inside of the yoke, not the shaft. This way the sealer smears along the inside of the yoke towards the outside and creates a better seal. If you put it on the shaft it can smear inward toward the bearing. Not good.

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    Last edited: Aug 6, 2013
  14. Aug 6, 2013
    wheelie

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    Oh, I trust you. Just looking for clarification if it was the front yoke or both yokes.

    I was thinking about it last night, while trying to fall asleep. I realized that, the part I missing, is that I have not yet installed the speedometer gears. That's why I couldn't see that rear yoke actually contacting anything that would affect the numbers. After thinking about it, I figured that the speedo gear is sandwiched in there between the yoke and the rear bearing. At least, that's how it seems to me.

    Back at after werk.

    Nick gets my vote for employee of the month. Thanks, man.:tea:

    And, I understand my likeness will be on the cover of "The Idiot's Guide to Transfer Case Overhauls.":)
     
  15. Aug 6, 2013
    wheelie

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    Got everything torqued properly and assembled like it should be, checked endplay at about .0025---ish. I'm going with this, I believe. Last remaining option, to tighten it up any further and still not be too tight, would be to remove one of the .031 shims and replace it with (3) of the .010 shims, to tighten up end play another .001. Removing the one remaining .003 seems like it would tighten it up too much. I mixed and matched and measured shims tonight until the cows came home and this was my end result.

    I'll take the rear yoke and retainer off, tomorrow evening, thoroughly degrease all the shims, bolts, etc, etc and, then, hopefully assemble it for the last time Thursday after work. That will leave only to install the studs for the girdle and pan and a final shot of paint (maybe).

    Almost getting excited to finally call this done and move onto the T18 stuff. Once again, I have to thank everyone for their patience with the guy who worries too much and asks too many questions. And, hey, I've already used that yoke wrench more than I thought I ever would. :rofl:
     
  16. Aug 7, 2013
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

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    Go with the .0025". That's very good right there.
    Feels good finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel isn't it?


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  17. Aug 7, 2013
    wheelie

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    It certainly does. I"m a little bummed that I won't be installing and running it right away, and so won't really feel the complete gratification but, I feel confident that it's a job well done. Hopefully the transmission will proceed at a much faster rate. I have Moses Ludels one book which has a chapter about rebuilding the T18. I'll likely use it as a guide unless I can procure something better, on paper. I'm sure I'll tire you out with questions on that, as well.

    I've learned to use some new tools through this job as well, which always pleases me. I'm hoping I can end this thread in a few more posts and start a new one.
     
  18. Aug 12, 2013
    wheelie

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    Well, it's basically finished up except for the girdle and pan. After final assembly, with copper gasket spray, I ended up with the end play at .0035 - .004. A bit more than I had hoped for. I may have gotten away with leaving the second .003 shim in.

    I left the interlock pill out, for 2L capability.

    Onto the T18. Hoping that is somehow easier than this. Less measuring stuff maybe, I hope.

    One last thank you for all the help.

    All the pics are here:
    http://s299.photobucket.com/user/wheelie1054/library/dana 18 rebuild?sort=6&page=1
     
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