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Clutch

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by alleycat3677, Mar 11, 2016.

  1. May 17, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    159
    It's a diaphragm type that I bought. Sacks clutch kit.
     
  2. May 18, 2016
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Mar 4, 2003
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    I've used the Sachs clutch kits on several builds. I'll swap between the ones for the 225 and a standard GM as they have different 'stand offs' in the diaphragm depending on what I needed. Since your looking at options and it's a 3 speed, has there been a thought to a T-14 tranny?
     
  3. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    159
    Sooooo....we learned the new PP was wrong. Put the old one in with the new clutch disk and new Novak adjustable TB. Clutch still won't release. I'm at my wits end with this. Fork moves the TB,TB moves the PP and still nothing. Won't allow me the put the damn thing in gear. Just grinding. Any thoughts??
     
  4. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    You do not have enough travel at the throw-out bearing to disengage the clutch disc completely from the flywheel............it's all about travel and ratio's between the parts that are doing the work.

    I have asked for pictures of your parts several times and I'm yet to see any?

    The basic's are this: You have a Clutch pedal & pushrod that moves a small clutch master cylinder on the firewall that pushes fluid to the slave cylinder attached somewhere on either your Bell-Housing or Transmission.
    The bore size in the clutch master cylinder is important as well as the stroke that is part of the clutch pedal ratio...........the bore size in your slave cylinder is also equally important ...........as well as the pedal ratio at your clutch pedal that is doing the work..........those Items bore size , stroke at the cylinder and pedal ration need to work together to push enough hydraulic fluid downstream to your Slave cylinder to get it to move the required amount...................more is better at this point. Note: A large bore at the clutch master will push more fluid down stream but have less mechanical advantage .........what normally is used is say a 7/8" bore master coupled with a smaller 3/4" bore slave........this will allow the slave to have a longer stroke than the master.

    Once at the clutch fork the ratio turns to 2:1.................meaning that if you have 1" of travel at the slave you will now only have 1/2" of travel at the throw-out bearing............as I mentioned previously in post #73 it takes anywhere from .400-.600 of an inch of travel in a average application to fully release the clutch disc from the flywheel.............that is net..........add free play to the system along with any play and other loose mechanical connections along the way will add to the required amount needed.....................
    Point is you need to go back and reevaluate your complete system so that you have enough travel to release the bearing while still maintaining free-play at the pedal.............Get a camera ....seeing what you have would be helpful in correcting your problem.

    Pedal Ratio.................it all starts here:
    [​IMG]
     
  5. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    I'll go get pics now. How do I know the bore size?
     
  6. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    159
  7. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    It's a Novak slave,I have no clue where the master came from. Prior owner installed it. I did drive it but the clutch started slipping and my issue came when we put in the new clutch. Hopefully the pics help.
     
  8. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Well judging from your pictures you have a 13/16" bore Master cylinder and a .875 or 7/8" inch slave.............that is just the opposite of what you would like to see in a correct system............as right now the travel at the Slave is less than the travel at the clutch master cylinder at the firewall..............also looking at how that slave attaches to the bell housing with spacers and bolts and such................I would guess that it has the ability to flex allot which will lessen the Net travel at the slave that you need...........have someone push in the clutch and see how much that slave bracket moves.............and while watching it measure the NET travel of that push rod coming out of the slave.

    Clutch ratio? Look at the drawing and measure the points.
     
  9. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    Yep!! Just realized that with the instructor. We are ordering a new master now. Update tomorrow. Thanks so much
     
  10. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    I would not be just throwing parts at this until you verify some of those other questions.............The difference in bore size I talked about will effect the overall travel...........but the difference is only a small amount and can be addressed later if needed.............

    I would be more interested in what I asked earlier..............." have someone push in the clutch and see how much that slave bracket moves around.............and while watching it measure the NET travel of that push rod coming out of the slave." .......................knowing those answers will then tell us where to go next..............which might be going to a 3/4" Bore slave.............but first things first.
     
  11. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    Oct 10, 2015
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    We notice no movement in the slave when the pedal is pressed. We replaced the aluminum spacers with steel. I only get just under an inch of slave movement. No amount of adjustment will make it work. If I give it too much the TB rides the diaphragm. Which is exactly what the PO had it set at and you should have seen the bearing when removed,toast. We have tried every combination of adjustment with the rod,pivot stud and TB. I think we need the bigger master.
     
  12. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    OK so "No" movement in or at the bracket is that correct?..............and have you checked along the path starting at the clutch pedal push rod to see if there is anything loose that would hinder travel?

    And what is just under an inch? 1.000" ............This is important? ...........You still do not have enough travel at the Slave............just under an inch there = just under 1/2" inch at the throw out bearing........
    In a perfect World a 7/8" Bore clutch Master cylinder would be mated to a 3/4" bore slave ..............If that slave is in fact a Novak slave that has the ability to have 2" of travel and what you should be seeing there is closer to 1.250 - 1.500" of travel...........give me a few minutes and I'll run the calculation on the travel between the two.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  13. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    No movement. The facility is closed now so I can't go measure exact movement. Sorry. It is definitely a Novak cylinder!
     
  14. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    OK on them being closed..............., I continue to think you just do not have enough NET travel at the slave to do the required work at the throw out bearing...................

    You have two Options............One is to have a Larger Bore Master cylinder that is pushing more fluid volume to a Smaller bore Slave cylinder. Of course when choosing sizes mechanical advantage has to be part of the equation........as More volume equals more travel at the smaller bore but comes at a cost of having less mechanical advantage ............or if you can increase your stroke at the Clutch Master Cylinder that will also increase the travel at the Slave cylinder by increasing more fluid volume...............(Note: Ultimately since you installed an adjustable Novak throw out bearing collar , It may also have to be re-adjusted once the stoke is increased at the Slave).

    So how much push rod stroke / travel do you have at the Clutch Master? Most of the Clutch Masters that I have seen only have about 1.5" +/- of piston travel while the Novak slave normally can go up to 2 inches..........

    That's why pedal ratio and travel is so important! It all starts there.
     
  15. Jun 1, 2016
    uncamonkey

    uncamonkey Member

    Greeley CO
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    Tarry, I don't have a dog in this fight so I will stay in my corner and I do understand what you are saying. I hope alleycat understands how the needed pedal effort is going to change with a new set up. V6 clutches were always a bit of a chore.
     
  16. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    I understand it will be harder to press. I will measure tomorrow morning. But if I recall it is about an inch and a half. The master rod is in the closer hole to get the most movement. I'm pretty sure it's moving further than the slave. I questioned the instructor about that but I am no master mechanic and am learning as I go.
     
  17. Jun 1, 2016
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    Hey , No dog here either............just trying to pass on a little knowledge on the subject. Hopefully he and the instructor can get that sorted out................It's just all basics that you have to pay attention to and apply along the path for the clutch to work properly with minimum effort............Just mechanical ratio's mixed with hydraulics ............No Rocket Science Here!
     
  18. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    I don't want you guys to think I'm not absorbing all this and really value what you say. I'm super frustrated because I just wanna drive it. You can tell by this thread it's been a while. If it wasn't lighting a fire under a couple of the student butts I would have towed it and payed a real shop to do it. Two kids are going to pass the class all because they found interest in my jeep!!!
     
  19. Jun 1, 2016
    Glenn

    Glenn Kinda grumpy old man Staff Member

    Apopka, Fl
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    In the picture showing the release arm is that with the slave extended?
     
  20. Jun 1, 2016
    alleycat3677

    alleycat3677 Member

    Upstate NY
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    No. But the spring wasn't adjusted tight to bring it all the way back so it was mid throw.
     
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