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Cj5 V6 225 Clutch/pilot Bushing Headach,

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Tomellen, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Jun 15, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    thanks
     
  2. Jun 15, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Here is the NOVACK trouble shooting list for a transmission that grinds when attempting to put it in gear. Red indicates items that require teardown or item has been eliminated as a possibility. Blue are items in progress on need to be checked.

    1--Linkage needs adjustment. Working and confirming linkage geometry is correct
    2--Release arm or fork too long. Correct fork used for my application..
    3--Release arm or fork hits bellhousing limiting clutch release. Need to check
    4--Clutch disk in backwards causing a interference between flywheel to crank bolt heads causing bolt heads to drive disk. Proved not the case by mocking up same flywheel, disk, and pressure plate as I have in jeep and doing a math check.
    5--Incorrect fly wheel to crank bolts used (thick bolt heads or washers used) causing a interference between flywheel to crank bolt heads causing bolt heads to drive disk. Proved not the case by mocking up same flywheel, disk, and pressure plate as I have in jeep and doing a math check.
    6--Pressure plate or cover warped. Requires tear down
    7--Too much runout at face of fly wheel. Requires tear down

    8--Release arm or fork angle wrong Need to check
    9--Pilot bearing interference with transmission input shaft. Requires tear down.

    There is still hope to avoid teardown. THANKS FOR EVERYONES INPUT. IT HAS BEEN HELPFUL AND THOUGHT PROVOKING
     
  3. Jun 15, 2019
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    The FSM for the 225 states 10 1/4" from centerlines of cotter key holes.
     
  4. Jun 15, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Back to your post #16, go to condition 2, with the engine running at low idle and clutch to the floor, try to ease it into 3rd gear only. Apply a little more tension on the shifter. Does it slip into gear? Grind teeth? Slow the idle slightly?
    These questions will be very telling.
    Now go to condition 3, with the engine off, clutch to the floor, and in first gear. Start the Jeep. Ease out slightly on the clutch. How much pedal movement does it take before the engine starts feeling a load and the vehicle starts to nudge forward? Right at the floor? An inch off the floor? 3"off the floor? Again, this will tell what is happening.

    The one thing that seems odd is condition 1. The trans is hard shifting with the clutch to the floor (engine not running). How does the trans shift without touching the clutch? Second to third, and back should be pretty easy, as should 1st to reverse, and back.
    Let us know some of these answers! Clutches are not either "engaged" or " disengaged". Those are the two extremes of their operation. With a vehicle like a Jeep, there should be a wide range of travel in between, which is what we need to determine in your case.
    -Donny
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  5. Jun 15, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Thanks walt. mine is 8.5!!! But that is whats worked in the past. I will fool with it some more
     
  6. Jun 15, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Donny, thanks for the interest.

    Motor running low idle, clutch to floor. WON'T GO INTO 3RD OR 2ND.

    At idle, in first, the clutch will start moving jeep when it reaches 3.5 to 4 inches from floor.

    Engine off, clutch to floor, shifts into any gear. seems easier now.

    Engine off, clutch out, shifts 1st to reverse and back. shifts from 3rd to second and back


    Thanks again.
     
  7. Jun 16, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    here's my suggestion
    pull top off transmission . so you would be able to hand turn input shaft
    this would let you feel the real drag that your dealing with
    input bearing or clutch disc. all done with engine OFF

    CAUTION . pull coil wire . so there's no chance you'll try and start engine with cover off
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  8. Jun 16, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    It sounds like your clutch disc is dragging, either due to not being adjusted properly, or the disc is warped, not allowing it to spin freely between the pressure plate and flywheel when the pedal is to the floor.
    3.5"-4" may be a bit much travel before engagement, but this favors having the clutch disengaged with the pedal to the floor.
    -Donny
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  9. Jun 17, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    I tried this but could not move the gear on input shaft with clutch in or out. I tried moving it by pushing it with a 3/4 wood dowel.
     
  10. Jun 17, 2019
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    What trans did you have in it before you put the Herm T-90 conversion in?
     
  11. Jun 17, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Walt,
    Had a t-86. Herm took my case and bearing retainers and put T-90 parts in. It has a larger (.625 od) input at the end for pilot bearing. He supplied the correct pilot bearing for it.

    I took the trans, trans case and bellhousing out today. Tired of waking up at 2:30 am thinking about it. I may have found a issue but have to post a picture tomorrow and get peoples input. Thanks for your help.
     
    Walt Couch likes this.
  12. Jun 18, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Well the problem I thought I found wasn't a problem at all. My worst fears came true, that is I didn't find a smoking gun!!
    I haven't found anything that seems to be a problem. Really don't want to go thru all the things I checked, measured, mocked up or inspected including all the suggestions from this forum. Good stuff, just wasn't my issue, I guess.
    I do have one thing I noticed, but according to Herm my issue can only be a clutch problem. He is very adamant about that!
    What I noticed is some brass smeared on the end of the trans input shaft that fits into pilot bushing. Take a look. Thoughts??? anyone, anyone. To me a pilot bearing interference fit would drive the trans input shaft and cause grinding when trying shift into gear.????
    Going to buy some parts before it goes back together. Would like to get a kit for 68 cj5 v6. I would need t90 pilot bushing instead of the smaller ID one for T86. pressure plate,, friction disk, fork, throw out bearing. Ill buy new bolts also. SO I'm looking for good kit that has proved itself with the experts here. Any suggestions, anyone, anyone.
    Thanks again for all your help.
    102_0244.JPG 102_0243.JPG
     
  13. Jun 18, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    well if you have some free time . install the trans again without the clutch
    and do as I suggested
     
  14. Jun 18, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    Ron,
    I did try your suggestion before I tore it down. Could not move the input shaft gear!

    I'm dreading putting it back in. I don't have a trans jack and I'm working on the floor. Doing it twice, wow ,but it sure would tell me if its a pilot bushing issue. Got to find a trans jack I guess. Thanks great suggestion
     
  15. Jun 18, 2019
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    I only suggested this cause of all the problems I ran into swapping a T18 in . one real issue . that wouldn't let it disengage . was the bearing retainer was too long and it was touching/pushing clutch disc toward flywheel . dauntless uses a thick flywheel . compared to the jeep that donated transmission
     
  16. Jun 18, 2019
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

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    I would polish off that bit of bronze from the bushing, and check the bore of the bushing to see why it transferred some material. Either it was totally dry (not lubricated) or it needs to be honed to size. If it was too tight, it could have caused some of your issues.
    -Donny
     
    mike starck likes this.
  17. Jun 18, 2019
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    That bushing is supposed to be an oil-lite (porous) type material. There should not be any traces of bushing material on the end of that shaft. The fit is too tight and when it gets hot it will get tighter. If you ream the bushing you will close off the oil passages. I would pull the clutch assy and remove the pilot bushing and pre-fit it on the end of the in-put shaft (just for good measure) That bushing is a special size because the 225 was not set up to work with the T-90J input shaft.
     
  18. Jun 18, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

    Ticonderoga, NY
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    102_0245.JPG
    I'm thinking the pilot bushing is the issue. I believe it was installed improperly and was slightly cocked in the bore. When the installer saw this he took a Dremel or some other tool and reached in the bore and tried to remove material form the ID so there would not be any binding. He could not reach all the way back and left about an 1/8 inch in the back of the bushing. This remaining bushing material rubbed and left the bronze on the input shaft as u see in the previous post picture.

    The picture above ( best I could get) shows the condition in the bushing bore. Hard to see in the picture, but with the naked eye this theory is obvious. You can see the band of material left at the back and you can also see the gouge marks in the ID that obviously were done by hand. By eye you can also see some effort was made to "level" the exposed end of the bushing so one could not see how one side of the bushing was slightly higher than the other. (cocked).
     
  19. Jun 18, 2019
    Tomellen

    Tomellen Member

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    Where can one of the special bushing be purchased. AGAIN, THANKS FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE
     
  20. Jun 18, 2019
    Walt Couch

    Walt Couch sidehill Cordele, Ga. 2020 Sponsor 2019 Sponsor

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    You might try novak. If they don't have one already made they will make you one if you tell them what you need. T-90J to Dauntless 225V6
     

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