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225 W/Pro-jection

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by msbweiland, Nov 30, 2003.

  1. Dec 4, 2003
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,939
    Nick, thanks for the input, I had an 89 and a 92 model Astro van and both of them were TBI systems with 150 and 170 hp ratings. The 89 model was very simple looking in its design so that might be a good place to start, the 92 model had a different airbox and alot more hardware under the hood, don't know if it was all TBI related though.
    Mruta you need to give me a call or drop me an e-mail as to what is available near you as compared to whats available near me and compare prices and what all we will need to start this setup with off of the donor vehicle.
     
  2. Dec 4, 2003
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    McRuff- I'll give you a call tomorrow after work if that's okay. I'm waiting to hear back from a guy about the sensor and a possible wiring harness source...
     
  3. Dec 9, 2003
    ScottP66CJ

    ScottP66CJ Member

    SoCal
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2002
    Messages:
    59
    Any updates guys?

    Scott
     
  4. Dec 16, 2003
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Arrrrgghh! Still waiting on my guy to let me know about the over the counter sensor. I'm 99% sure it's a Chrysler VSS but don't know the year/make/model or if it even matters for this project.....


    I'm going to call another "guru" and see what he says....
     
  5. Dec 16, 2003
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    11,595
    Painless Wiring makes a vss that goes in line with the speedo cable. That's what I'm using on my CJ-6. You might also check around to some of the other aftermarket Fool Injection suppliers. There is another one out there that makes one cheaper than the Painless unit (found this out after I had already bought the Painless unit).
    Nickmil.
     
  6. Dec 17, 2003
    cj51969

    cj51969 New Member

    Smithsburg, MD
    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5
    Wow the old fuel injection thing is going again..... :shock:
    Just want to through one thing out there... Oddfires are oddfires because they don't fire evenly... right? One of the advantages of fuel injection is that it squirts fuel in pulses timed to when the intake valves are opening... right? By using a crank sensor to fool it into squirting on an even rhythm to make it work won't that in fact cause it to squirt at times when there won't be a valve open? Won't that cause there to be too much fuel at some times and not enough at others? I'd think that it might be OK at higher rpms but it would make for a very rough idle especialy when the engine is cold. I'll need to think this through a little more but maybe 2 triggers? I'll need to reread again when I'm more awake - http://home.off-road.com/~merls_garage/oddfire.html but a trigger at 90 & 150? or would it need to ignore the triggers sometimes?
    Oh 1 more thing to throw out there... isn't one of the newer Dodge engines used in the dakotas an oddfire?.... maybe adapting one of those?
    Mike B.
     
  7. Dec 17, 2003
    JohnyJeep

    JohnyJeep BLOWING A XING NEAR U@2AM

    Beautiful Cody WY
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    513
    There is a company called stealth conversions that makes a VSS. I used it when I put an 89 corvette TPI motor in my ex wifes car. Don't know if yo uneed info or not just in case this helps.
     
  8. Dec 17, 2003
    mruta

    mruta I drank with Billy!

    Downers Grove, IL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Good to hear from you again Mike. In a nutshell, the absolute simplest explanation of TBI operation that I've been able to come up with is: TBI basically acts like a big electronic carburetor without a float, needles, choke or any of the other stuff that people don't like about carbs. Throttle body systems just shoot fuel into the intake manifold- much like a carburetor but much more precisely. I'm slowly writing an explanation of how to get TBI to work on our engines with hopes that I might be able to put it up on Sparky's site one day....

    mruta
     
  9. Dec 17, 2003
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
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    Just got back from Yankee's salvage yard, picked up (2) sm420's for Jim McCarty and his friend for $150, talked to Yankee about a TBI unit and ECU to run it plus the wiring pigtail, he will sell me one off of an S10 or Astro van for $100 all inclusive plus a few bucks for the O2 sensor and temp probe.
    I think I will be back in a week or 2 to buy a setup to start working with.

    The 3.9 dodge engine is suppose to be oddfire as well as the Viper engine, but Dodge never used TBI so that would be difficult.
    As far as the TBI unit squirting fuel when a valve is not open, think about the length of time you are talking about , 30 degrees of crank rotation on an engine that idles at 650-700 rpm thats 10-11 rotations every second at idle speed, 30 degrees of rotation on the crank even if it ran 4 times faster than the cam is still within fractions of a second for the TBI to squirt fuel for combustion even at idle speed.
     
  10. Dec 18, 2003
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Messages:
    11,595
    Yup, what Mcruff, said. There are even port fuel injection systems that constantly squirt fuel in the system even when the valves are open. As was said, think of TBI as an electronic carburetor with no floats or fuel sloshing around, that is much more accurately metered by the O2 sensor and computer for more efficiency versus a carburetor that relies on engine vacuum to operate correctly. Nickmil.
     
  11. Dec 20, 2003
    Boyink

    Boyink Super Moderator Staff Member

    Ava, MO
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Messages:
    5,085
    Ran across this...

    http://www.4x4wire.com/events/2003/avalanche_ranch/ranch_visit/

    Then

    The author is Joshua Lowenstein, superdawg@4x4wire.com. Might want to shoot him a note and see what setup he's had, and what issues, etc.
     
  12. Apr 7, 2004
    ScottP66CJ

    ScottP66CJ Member

    SoCal
    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2002
    Messages:
    59
    I thought I would bring this one back to life.

    Any updates??

    Bueller...Bueller............
     
  13. Apr 7, 2004
    vanguard

    vanguard Guest

    Not an update, but I do remember reading an article in the last year where they used a holley projection setup on an F-head. Now if they can do that, you gotta be able to FI an oddfire.
     
  14. Apr 7, 2004
    michigan_pinstripes

    michigan_pinstripes I'm not lost, I'm wandering

    Clarkston MI...
    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    605
    I've often wondered about building a TBI conversion using existing junk yard parts and CNC made adapters on the manifold. It would take some serious experimenting! ECM systems are really pretty simple once you understand the basics.

    Voltage in from sensors, Voltage out for fuel adjustment

    These guys may know something: http://www.casperselectronics.com/
     
  15. Apr 7, 2004
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
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    4,939
    No, I have been so busy lately that I haven't had a chance to go back to the junkyard and get the parts but I still intend to do this in the near future. We just got conformation on a new to us CNC at work today, big sucker, will be able to put about 8,000 lbs on the table of it, this means in a month or so I should to be able to start making some more complicated parts, with only manual machines and a very limited amount of equipment making things now is very time consuming but it won't be in a month or so.
     
  16. Aug 21, 2005
    BlueFlu

    BlueFlu past owner of some ecj5's

    Hermitage, TN
    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
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    1,552
    I know this has been well over a year, any updates guys?
     
  17. Mar 29, 2006
    Dybgpn

    Dybgpn New Member

    Las Vegas
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2005
    Messages:
    35
    My question still hasn't been addressed. Does this system required a 4bbl manifold or can you use a mounting plate adaptor.
     
  18. Mar 29, 2006
    Mcruff

    Mcruff Earlycj5 Machinist

    Albertville, AL
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Messages:
    4,939
    You can use a mounting adapter, boughten if you can find one, made if you have access.
     
  19. Mar 31, 2006
    OrangeCJ5

    OrangeCJ5 Sponsor

    Taylorsville, UT
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2003
    Messages:
    422
    Okay Guys, one of the things I have wanted since day one on my Jeep is fuel-injection. I am all about simplicity and not having to re-invent the wheel. I read everything I could find here and on the internet about fuel-injecting one of these V6's. I came to the conclustion that the simplest most effective way was Holley ProJection. I bought a kit off Ebay, send a PM to smiley1049 who also runs ProJection to ask one qeustion and installed it this week. The install went smooth as silk and other than a fuel delivery issue (which I think is related to the fuel hose routing) this kit works perfectly. If I spray carb cleaner in the TB it runs like a champ. You DO need a 4bbl. manifold but I already had the Offy dual plane installed so it wasn't a big deal. From my research it seems that the TBI doesn't care about the odd-fire because it's just TBI, not Multi-Port, it only cares what the RPM's are not the timing spaces or anything else. I just tapped into my HEI tach line and that was that. Also, I read that the because of the greater volume inside the dual plane Offy manifold, there is always fuel/air mixture in there even though the timing pulses are irregular. I will be figuring out why I don't have fuel delivery tomorrow and doing some final tuning. From what I have seen so far on my Jeep, this is going to work just fine.
    Mike
     
  20. Mar 31, 2006
    lynn

    lynn Time machine / Early CJ5 HR Rep Staff Member

    Huntingdon PA
    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2002
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    3,437
    Keep us posted Mike!! Got pics??????
     

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