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225 to t18 clutch issues .... help!

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by brunester, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. Sep 15, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
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    97
    Hey guys,
    Sorry about creating yet another clutch thread,
    But im stuck with a jeep on jacks :(

    synopsis:
    Even with the clutch pedal pushed down all of the way, it grinds going into gear and the wheels still spin.

    Engine: buick v6 225.
    Clutch: Sachs(SD1021 + BBC1874)
    Trans: Ford t-18
    Tcase: D-18
    Linkage: AA Chain Linkage.

    Adjustable Ball Pivot, Standard GM throwout bearing (I think)

    So I have the adjustable ball pivot adjusted out pretty high, and the linkage is tight. (tighter than normal, because Im trying to get it to work)

    Before I put the transmission back in:
    I mated the bell to the motor and tested out the linkage, I was able to spin the clutch disk when the pedal was pushed in.
    So I think the linkage works, and the issue lies with something else.

    After I put the transmission back in, this is what happens:
    when I push in the clutch its really hard to get into first gear, it will go, but it takes some effort.
    It feels like the clutch is almost free, but not quite. I can watch my front tires spin while I have the clutch pushed in and in first gear.
    I also tried holding the brakes while the clutch was pushed in and in first gear. The wheels slowed down, but the motor wanted to die.
    So im not sure what the issue is here.

    could the pilot bushing be binding on the shaft?

    Any help would be appreciated. Im almost to the point of just getting it towed to a mechanic so I can throw money at them.
     
  2. Sep 15, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Check the pilot bushing like you said. It is possible it's tight on the pilot. Also check the splines on the transmission input shaft. Some end just a tad short and will hold the disc against the flywheel. This is caused by the thicker 225 flywheel.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  3. Sep 15, 2012
    Twin2

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    Virginia Beach, VA
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    I would check the things nick said . and would also check that the bearing retainer is not touching clutch disk because of the thicker 225 flywheel . although I didn't use a ford trans , the jeep trans did touch . take the top off trans and see if you can rotate it by hand with clutch pushed in . just some thing to think about
     
  4. Sep 15, 2012
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I am fighting the same issues with the same clutch. One of the biggest items I found was the torque on the PPlate - I have mine at 18# now and things are starting to loosen up so its actually driveable now.

    I had checked all the things Nick listed when I changed forks out thinking that would help (no). I believe I have a slight tweek in alignment changing how tight the pilot bearing is from the test fit as some wear seems to be helping. If it does not resolve in the next few weeks, I'll have to spend another weekend and pull it again.
     
  5. Sep 15, 2012
    fdpwr2a

    fdpwr2a New Member

    NWMO
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    46
    I'm having the same issue using a 225 and a sm 420 I too will checkout a few things I hope I don't have to pull the motor I had just swapped in!! Thanks for the info fdpwr2a
     
  6. Sep 16, 2012
    Pete

    Pete Demo

    Campbell, CA
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    I had to take a 1/2" off the input shaft when I put a t18 in to my '70 v-6. I don't know if you are putting a new tranny in, or the old one that once worked fine?
     
  7. Sep 16, 2012
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Mine is a new setup with a rebuilt T18. I did press the pilot bearing in as deep as it would go the second time thinking there may be a bit of binding. I am using the 'standard' setup for the 225 - Ford input, bearing retainer turned for Chevy TO, Drilled to take a Jeep adaptor turned down to fit a small hole D18.
     
  8. Sep 16, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Did you ream the pilot bushing to fit the Ford pilot? It's larger than the GM pilot....


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. Sep 16, 2012
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    I checked mine manually - and it came from R&P for the setup, so it all fit from what I could tell.
     
  10. Sep 17, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
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    Hey Guys,
    Thank you for the responses.
    The story is, I had a jeep t-18 in the jeep, which worked fine, then it decided to weld itself together (I think its because the last person to rebuild it left out some of the needle bearing spacers, and I used too thick of oil)

    Nickmil,
    When you say to check the splines, what exactly am I looking for? And how would I correct this?

    I know when I had the bearing retainer turned down, it got shortened a little bit,
    Im not sure if its touching, I will have to check that.

    For the pilot shaft tip,
    How would I tell if it is bottoming out? the bell bolts up and everything

    For the pilot bushing,
    I actually had a friend mill me one out of bronze, after he got fed up with trying to enlarge the hole on the jeep on. So it might be too tight, the fit was very snug, but it still turned.

    For the pressure plate torque,
    How important is keeping those things torqued down,
    Are there any drawbacks to lessening the torque? Currently they are at 35

    Thank you for the help guys.
     
  11. Sep 17, 2012
    wheelie

    wheelie beeg dummy 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor

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    I don't think the torque spec on the PP would affect the operation of the clutch.
     
  12. Sep 17, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    [​IMG]

    The Ford T-18 shaft on the left you can see how the shaft necks down at the splines on the gear side. The one on the right does not. If yours is like the one on the right the disc can bottom against the end of the splines and hold the disc against the flywheel. This is caused by the thicker flywheel moving the disc towards the transmission too much. Two ways to fix if this is happening. Carefully extend the splines or change inputs to the stepped style.
    When the Ford bearing retainer is machined to match the GM the od of the base where it indexes to the bellhousing is machined as is the od of the spout area where the throwout bearing rides and it is shortened as you noted.
    If a stock GM pilot bushing was machined out for the Ford pilot it should not be bottoming out. It could be tight though, especially if the transmission is not perfectly in line with the engine crank shaft.
     
  13. Sep 17, 2012
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    Correct - the torque spec is very important.
     
  14. Sep 17, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
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    Thank you for helping me out.
    I think my plan of attack is going to be:

    Try to get a mirror in there to see if my bearing retainer is too long. If it is, I will have to take it off and grind it down, I might polish the sliding surface while im at it (cant hurt right?)

    Then take the transmission down again. (trying not to let it crush me)

    Then check the pilot busing to see if its too big.
    If it is too big, Should i just get a new one from novak? or should I try and sand out the inside a wee bit with a dowl or something?

    Then check the Splines on the input shaft, I am fairly certain that they are the correct style, but I will make sure.

    Then i will pop the bell off and mock up the linkage again to double check the function. Which should also check the torque values of the PP, Im thinking if it works without the tranny in, then something to do with the tranny is the problem.

    Do you think that will cover all my bases?
    I know for a fact that the transmission itself is in fine working order, so it has to be something introduced to the system by bolting the tranny up.

    Thanks,
    -Eric
     
  15. Sep 20, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
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    Hi Guys,
    If anyone is following this thread.

    I took the tranny down today,
    It looks like bearing retainer was rubbing up against the clutch friction disk(lots of metal powder mixed with the release bearing grease on the top of it.. and the friction disk was all messed up)

    Does anyone know how long the bearing retainer is supposed to be?
    And is it worth having a machine shop cut off the excess, or can I just grind it off with my belt sander?

    Thank you for the help!
    =Eric
     
  16. Sep 20, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Should be standard GM length. I can measure it tomorrow after work. I've posted it before but may have gotten lost. A search may turn it up however.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  17. Oct 3, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
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    ok,
    So since last time:

    My jeep is still on jacks,

    I took everything down,
    Verified that there was no grinding on the newly shortened T-18 bearing retainer
    Installed a new pilot bushing (which I had machined, and I verified the fit)
    Re-installed the clutch (Friction plate is the right way)
    Verified that the T-18 pilot shaft is the correct type (with the step down in the splines)
    Mated the bellhousing to the engine without the transmission attached and verified clutch function.
    Then I bolted the transmission up and tightened everything down.

    Now,
    When the engine was off I put a ratchet on the transfercase yoke nut, with the clutch pedal pushed in and the tcase in 4wd hi I was able to spin the clutch disk (I could hear it spinning)
    But,
    When I turn the engine on, It still grinds going into gear, and is very hard to get into second gear (have to wait for the syncros to spin up I think)
    I connected the front drvieshaft and when idling in first gear, the front tires spin. When I blip the throttle with the clutch pedal pushed in I see the tire speed blip as well.
    When I hit the brakes, the engine behaves like it is under load and eventually dies.

    Should I just run it and see if the problem goes away with use?
    At this point, im not sure what else I can do.

    Thank you for the help!
    -Eric
     
  18. Oct 3, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Have you verified you're getting enough throw on the release arm? I.E. releasing the pressure plate far enough?
     
  19. Oct 3, 2012
    brunester

    brunester Member

    Santa Cruz Ca.
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    I thought I did,

    I mated the bellhousing up with the clutch linkage and TO bearing in place
    I was able to turn the clutch disk by hand with the alignment tool when I pushed the clutch pedal in.

    Should I test it some other way?
    It has an adjustable ball pivot stud, so I could try making that longer while everything is still mated up.
     
  20. Oct 3, 2012
    Warloch

    Warloch Did you say Flattie??? Staff Member

    Falcon, CO
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    What did you torque the clutch to when you put it back on?
     
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