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Saginaw Power Steering (pics) Please Add Yours!

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Mcruff, Aug 5, 2005.

  1. Sep 20, 2018
    Bajatransit

    Bajatransit Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    So.... now that I am getting skunked after hunting for a few days.... who makes a pitman drop arm that has the Saginaw 36spline on one end and the oem Jeep size on the drag link end? 6.5” throw and 3.5” drop. Having a difficult time finding this. Thanks for your help.
     
  2. Sep 20, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2012
    Messages:
    3,784
    No one.............the dropped Sag Power steering Pittman arms in the market place are around 2-2.5" in drop and 5-5.5" throw........and in most case have a blank key in them so depending on your exact mount location the key normally has to be filed out so that it can be clocked properly to get equal travel L/R from center...............If your steering gear is not finished mounted yet , move it to the correct location...keep in mind that longer vs shorter Pittman arms can have the effect to either quicken or slow steering and shorten travel.........most times we try to keep the ratio / length between the spindle arm and pittman arm.......as close to 1:1 as possible.

    Keys filed out for proper clocking............and below a straight blank Power Pittman Arm..........which is a good choice as it has no key and the drag link side can be drilled and positioned anywhere........of course the steering gear has to be positioned properly to use it...........Parts Mike in Auburn , Cal. used to have a pretty good selection of Pittman arms.
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  3. Sep 24, 2018
    Bajatransit

    Bajatransit Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2016
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    51
    Thanks Tarry. I was also referred to Parts Mike and called Del last week. They actually found me exactly what I needed. Looks like a perfect fit. Hope it works. Thanks for your help.
     
  4. Dec 10, 2018
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2007
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    Photo of my setup showing most of the components. I used the Herm kit with the Ford reverse PS gear. I do like that it stays inside the engine compartment. I arranged the PS gear where I had the best clearance on the fuel pump. I was able to remove and install the fuel pump recently without removing PS Gear.

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    The mount from Herm clamps to the frame using only one bolt in the center. I drilled two more holes and used two 1/2" bolts.

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    Dana 30 front with new draglink and Tierod. The draglink is flipped to the top but I left the tierod on bottom of the steering knuckle.

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    Never could have done this without ECJ5 and all of your help. Thanks
     
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  5. Dec 10, 2018
    FinoCJ

    FinoCJ 1970 CJ5 Staff Member

    Bozeman, MT
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2013
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    Looks good. How did herms kit work with the v6? Always helps to know a bit more to the specifics of the set-up (which you probably have somewhere else) such as are you running fenderwell headers or rear dump exhaust manifold on the driver side, oem pedals or hanging etc? thanks!
     
  6. Dec 10, 2018
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
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    Aug 13, 2015
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    Does the drag link cross over the tie rod? I hope?

    I'm hoping it's just an illusion, but it looks like your drag link heads toward the inner hole and the tie rod is in the outer hole. The tie rod needs to go into the inner hole (closer to the knuckle), or you wheels will steer at different speeds.
     
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  7. Dec 10, 2018
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
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    Yes, Fenderwell headers and thru the floor pedals. Hanging pedals will be in the next round of Mods. I already bit off a lot more than I'm comfortable with.

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Dec 10, 2018
    Buildflycrash

    Buildflycrash More or Less in Line. 2024 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Gulf Breeze FL...
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    Yes, I have the draglink in the outer hole and it does cross over. I was concerned with the two rods coming in contact which is why the DL is on top of the knuckle and the TR is on bottom. Seems to be OK in my test flex...

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  9. Dec 10, 2018
    71CJ54WD

    71CJ54WD Sponsor

    DC
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    May 3, 2018
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    Should the drag link run directly above the tie rod? In my head I imagine the Jeep turning more to one side than the other with the drag link behind the tie rod but I am not sure.
     
  10. Dec 10, 2018
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
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    The tie rod ends need to connect to the knuckles at the same distance from the pivot points of the knuckles (ball joints) in relation to each other.

    Where the drag link connects is a bit irrelevant after that fact. The closer it is mounted to the knuckle pivot, the quicker the steering ratio and harder the required input. The further from the pivot, the slower the steering response and easier steering.
     
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  11. Dec 10, 2018
    71CJ54WD

    71CJ54WD Sponsor

    DC
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    What I am worried about if I end up using the herm kit is how other install pictures show the drag link so much further back that the tie-rod. I don't know if this is an issue but something I have noted.
     
  12. Dec 10, 2018
    ITLKSEZ

    ITLKSEZ Hope for the best, prepare for the worst

    Liberty Lake, WA
    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2015
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    Gotcha. As Buildflycrash has figured out a way, as long as the drag link clears the pumpkin and tie rod through all ranges of motion, it shouldn't matter if the steering box is a little in front of/behind the tie rod.
     
    71CJ54WD likes this.
  13. Nov 11, 2019
    cayenne

    cayenne Member

    central Texas
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    276
    Here is my saginaw steering / tie rod flip swap summary on a 1967 with a dauntless v6. I hope this helps someone. I'll add pics in the next few weeks once I figure out a hosting site. A big thank you to the people who posted their setups and pictures before me.

    Parts:
    • Box - Rock Auto's A1 Cardone part # 27-6537 (4 hole, 4.1 turn, inverted flare ports)
    • Pump - MasterPro Power Steering Pump - Re-manufactured Part #732-2108
    • Pump pulley - used 1967-70 Buick Riviera, Skylark V8 used power steering pump pulley # 1386935. (I tried two new ones and they didn't have the right offset)
    • Pump mount bracket- jeepster guru
      • The new stamped brackets do not work unless you clearance your fender a few inches. Must purchase a set of old high mount brackets from a 66-70 v8 Buick
    • Pressure hose -
      • Aeroquip hose FC300-06 6AN
      • 5/8 flare with 90* bend with 6AN male brazed on AND a 90* 6AN male to female fitting (to turn the hose forward and under pump)
      • 11/16 flare with 90* bend with 6AN male brazed on
      • 6AN to reusable hose adapter
      • Low pressure hose- simple 90* with a 5/8" flare on one side
    • Crank pulley - 231 Buick Pontiac Oldsmobile 3 Groove V Belt Crankshaft Pulley 25522581
      • Had machine shop cut off outermost grove other wise fan would hit it
    • 1/2" Fan spacer (needed to clear new crank pulley).
    • Steering column 30" -- FLA-FR20001BK
      • firewall Mount: FLA-FR20100
      • Reused dash mount
    • Steering wheel - GRT-993
      • Adapter GRT-3196
    • Steering shaft
      • Box > Spud shaft > 1"DD to 1"DD joint > 1" collapsible shaft > 3/4" DD to 1"DD joint >steering column.
    • rear dump exhaust manifold - jeepster guru. (local exhaust shop rebuilt the collector pipe)
    • AA kit parts used
      • Frame boxing metal
      • Box mount
      • Spud shaft
      • Collapsible shaft
      • 1" x 1" D joint
      • Pitman arm (I need a 2" drop though even with tie rod flip - YJ 3.5" spring under lift)
    • Passenger 2 hole knuckle from a J-truck at a full sized jeep junkyard
    • OK4wd tie rod flip inserts
    • Tie rod - custom from speedway motors
    • Drag link - custom from speedway motors
    • Steering box brace -- to be determined.
    • Drop pitman arm - to be determined
    I had been hesitating to do this swap for a long time due to the cost of how involved it was. It turned out to be both expensive and time consuming. The expense was due to many mis-ordered parts, and I didn't try to source anything at a junkyard. The time was waiting on parts, and the fact I was working at a place I only go on some weekends. However, when my tires were aired down and I was in 4x4 low, I physically could not turn the wheel when going slow because of the front automatic diff locker. This resulted in some dangerous situations. This was part of a much bigger project which included: RR YJ spring kit, Metcalf Suzuki disc brakes, rebuilding front axle knuckles and spindles, and sinking my winch into the bumper since the steering box interfered with the mounting plate I had on top of the frame horns. Being able to steer easily while stopped is a very new and odd experience...it will take some getting use to.



    If I were to do it over again:
    1. Gather ALL the parts and do mock ups before you start tearing it down. I thought I had gathered the parts, but ordering the bolts, different adapters, odds and ends took lots of down time.
    2. Don't buy the big AA kit unless you need to. I ended up using very little of it because:
      1. I couldn't figure out where to cut the original column, and then I broke the brass bushing while trying to get it on the end of the shaft. I was already thinking of a smaller steering wheel, so I ended up going with a tilt column which was much easier in the end.
      2. I went to a two hole knuckle, so none of the tie rod or drag links were close to working.
    1. I would swap out the dana27 to a dana 30. After retrofitting disc brakes, installing the two hole knuckle, redoing the knuckle studs instead of bolts, repurchasing drag links, etc, I think it would be cheaper just to put in a dana30.
    2. I am glad I did the steering and the Rocky Road YJ lift at the same time...the box and shackle hanger need the same area. Once the frame end is boxed, a lot of the bolts for the hanger would be blind.
    3. Go with the reusable aeroquip pressure hose from the start. I tried several different off the shelf pressure hoses but none of them were close. The AA box mounting plate is thinner than the original one that came on jeeps, so the bend to go around the grill corner ends up way in the wheel well. With the reusable hose ends, you can play around with routing and length in the comfort of your own garage.
    4. Make sure the hoses and ports are not plugged when you test the steering for first time.
    Notes:
    1. The steering shaft barely cleared the exhaust manifold with the 30" column. I thought I was going to have to go with 3 universal joints and a pillow block, but got away with 2.
    2. I use a bi-metal hole saw to cut through the cross member for steering shaft, and it went surprisingly easy. Then welded in a piece of pipe.
    3. I mounted the box as far forward as it would go before it hit the bumper. This is necessary otherwise the grill sits right over the steering box ports.
    4. I really tried to avoid cutting the grill for the hoses, but it sure made it easier.
    5. Read the instructions with the tie rod flip inserts...they didn't come with them so find them online. I had a heck of a time getting them to work right, and still not 100% sure. I really had to torque the tierod ends to get them to seat so I could get a pin on the castle nut.
    6. The pump is touching the inside of the fender well which seems like it isn't right. But getting a shorter belt won't help much, since there isn't much room for adjustment.
      1. So as a update a few months later, I realized the new stamped brackets for the pump bracket are much longer and lower then the original high mount brackets from a 66-70 v8 Buick. Should of know off the shelf parts were too easy.

    1 year Update:
    1) For a pitman arm I used a WJ 1.5" drop MOOG K400025 and filed the splines with a triangle file like others do. It was easier than I was worried about and came out just about perfect with the tie rod flip.
    2) I was using wrong tie rod ends. The ones that came with the speedway motors ones must be for GM or something (I learned alot). Correct (or at least look better): Moog ES140R (right side)
    3) original junkyard high mount brackets from a 66-70 v8 Buick are much better than the new stamped brackets you can get from ebay. They don't rub the inside of the fenders.
    4) again - I regret sinking even more money into a dana25/27. A local I met selling parts was able to purchase a Roxor front axle with 5.38s already installed and disc brakes.
    5) If you are planning on using a two-hole knuckle and flipping tie rods (maybe just the tie rod flip?).....you have to also plan on moving your shocks to behind the axle.
    6) well worth the effort/downtime/cost. Much more enjoyable to drive on the road and off.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
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  14. Nov 11, 2019
    73 cj5

    73 cj5 Not ready for the junkyard yet

    Clinton, Mississippi
    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,137
    Yea I grabbed my steering box, looked at the frame and hung my head. There’s two options and one is going to be expensive.
     
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  15. Nov 21, 2019
    cayenne

    cayenne Member

    central Texas
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    276
    after some driving around, I noticed that my belt isn't tight enough and I am out of room for adjusting before I hit the inner fender. I am going to try for a slightly smaller belt. If that doesn't work then I guess I get out my fine adjustment device and bang on the fender until I get clearance. I am starting to really enjoy not wrestling the wheel.

    pictures from my install (hope they work):

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 21, 2019
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  16. Nov 21, 2019
    Bandit

    Bandit Member

    Alberta, Canada
    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    83
    Thanks Cayenne, that answers a lot of questions. I'll probably be copying your install, looks realy nice
     
  17. Nov 21, 2019
    cayenne

    cayenne Member

    central Texas
    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2006
    Messages:
    276
    One final thing. The power steering pump had the return hose inlet in a goofy orientation on the pump I bought. It points toward the front of the block (like toward water pump) and puts the hose under the pump and pretty close to the belt. Some time comparing pumps to see where that inlet points may be worth the effort.
     
  18. Nov 21, 2019
    homersdog

    homersdog Tulsa, Ok 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Tulsa, OK
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    When you put pictures in from beaming pix copy "forum code" and drop it into your post as a link. That way the pictures will show up in your post
     
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  19. Nov 21, 2019
    Focker

    Focker That's a terrible idea...What time? Staff Member

    WA
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2014
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    7,540
    Fixed the links for you. ;)
     
  20. Nov 27, 2019
    Hônes

    Hônes New Member

    Colorado Springs CO
    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2019
    Messages:
    32
    Here is my PS swap on a 66 CJ-6 using a 4 bolt Saginaw box with 36 spline input, TJ steering shaft, and original column. Built a new lower mount for the column after cutting the Ross box off. Had to put a different pulley on the crank to get the extra belt over to the pump. Stock only had one groove.

     
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