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A Brief History Of Early Warn Hubs For Jeeps

Discussion in 'Early Jeep Restoration and Research' started by maurywhurt, May 29, 2018.

  1. Mar 22, 2021
    xavier marchant

    xavier marchant New Member

    Andorra
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  2. Mar 22, 2021
    Mr Vaughan

    Mr Vaughan Fly by the seat of your pants

    Central City, NE
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    the hubs on my jeep are marked m1, and have the IH logo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
  3. Mar 22, 2021
    Fireball

    Fireball Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Pullman, WA
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    I followed the link for his image and could see the picture:

    [​IMG]

    It's nothing I'm familiar with. It must be patterned after a Warn Lock-o-matic, but without the manual override.
     
  4. Mar 22, 2021
    LostBiscuit

    LostBiscuit New Member

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    Fireball is correct, that this hub is patterned after a Warn hub, but more likely it was patterned after the Warn Automatic-version of the hub (which Hugo told me was a problematic hub and discontinued pretty quickly).

    AVM was started by Hugo Vidal in 1957 (AVM) after a handshake-deal with Arthur Warn while Hugo and his two friends were driving a CJ-3B around the Americas (Brasil to Alaska, 1955 on CJ3B.info). Using Warn's specs, Hugo was able to resell Warn tech under the AVM brand. Eventually, AVM expanded outside of Brazil. After 50 years, Hugo retired from AVM. Hugo and Warn (and his son) never had an actual contract. It was always a handshake deal built on trust.

    I got the absolute pleasure of meeting 84-year-old Hugo in 2017 and traveling to Alaska with Hugo and his son Fernando. (I've attached a pic of us, Fernando on the left, me on the right and Hugo in the middle, in northern Canada). The last I knew he was still alive, but he I haven't received an email from him in months.

    Hugo was so important to Brazil's jeep history that FCA Brazil called him First Citizen of Jeep Nation in a 2018 video that can be seen here: Post Alaska Or Rust Item: FCA Brazil’s Video of Hugo Vidal

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Aug 29, 2021
    KeithR

    KeithR Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor

    Canada
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    Thanks for this, the best info I could find on the web when rebuilding my hubs
     
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  6. Apr 13, 2022
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    maurywhurt likes this.
  7. Jul 26, 2022
    cjbilly

    cjbilly New Member

    East Central Indiana
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    Speaking of WARN hubs, picked up a '46 VEC couple weeks ago with these gems on the front axle- EARLY summer hubs (y)
     
    Fireball likes this.
  8. Jul 27, 2022
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Summer hubs make the front axle non-funtional, like removing the drive flanges. I never understood the novelty of them.
    Many years ago a friend bought an old 2a and brought it to me because he said the 4 WD didn’t work. It had summer hubs! I put drive flanges on and he was real happy.
    -Donny
     
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  9. Aug 26, 2022
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Hi Mickey,

    I have a question for you that isn't directly related to your post above. I was looking at your excellent writeup on the CJ2a site about the Warn M2 hubs you restored a few years ago (https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/vintage-warn-3-ring-m2-hubs_topic45080.html ). Beautiful restoration job, by the way! After reading your post, I used the process you outlined to restore a set of M2's for my jeep I picked up recently, including using replacement O-rings from TorqueKing.

    Anyway, I noticed on the photos you posted showing the restored hubs that, as you discovered when restoring them, one of the sets had a longer raised boss on the selector dial, where the the M2 model number was stamped, than the other set did:

    Set 1:
    [​IMG]

    Set 2:
    [​IMG]


    When I was working on the early posts in this thread several years ago, I ran into some photos of a set of NOS Warn M2 hubs with the shorter boss. Based on the "'Approved Jeep Equipment" logo on printed the box label, it was evident that this set had to have been manufactured during or before 1968 , the year Kaiser changed that logo to read "Special Jeep Equipment".

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    In 1969, the M2 hubs for the early CJ-5 were replaced by the new model M-54 "Spring-Lock" hubs. Note that this cutaway display of a Spring-Lock hub for another vehicle likewise has the shorter-length boss on its selector dial:

    [​IMG]


    While I was writing this today, I came across the post you made on this thread back in 2018 after finding the two different boss lengths (http://www.earlycj5.com/xf_cj5/index.php?threads/131117/page-2#post-1455994 ). Regarding the theory that the later, longer Warn hub model numbers may have necessitated a wider boss, the longest M-series model numbers I've found so far were comprised of M plus 4 characters - but even these model numbers seem to fit on the shorter boss, as can be seen in the photo of the M195A display hub above.

    Like you, I'm curious about the reason for as well as the timing of the longer and shorter-boss versions of the M-series hubs. My guess is that the longer-boss version is slightly earlier, and that at some point Warn decided to shorten the raised boss in order to reduce the amount of brass used. Though the difference would have been small in terms of the volume of brass saved per hub, this would have added up over the manufacture of thousands of hubs.

    The 1966 Warn catalog shown on one of the early posts in this thread appears to be the earliest iteration that mentioned the conversion to the M-series numbering. I'm thinking the longer boss was used when the M-series hub numbers first began being stamped, probably in 1966, and then the boss was later shortened to save material sometime in 1967-68.

    Do you (or anyone else reading this post) have any thoughts on that?


    As an interesting side note...the Warn manual locking hubs made today for the early CJ-5, the model 29062, still have the shorter raised boss cast into the selector dial - though the model numbers, for some reason, are no longer being stamped into them:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2022
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  10. Aug 27, 2022
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    I have not studied enough of the history to really know. It was just an observation on the samples I had. I had bought/accumulated enough sets for parts, just in case. As it turned out, I was able to get 2 good sets and did the "restore" on them as a learning process, then did mine for the CJ. I still have a couple more sets to go thru including the set from my Wagon and some day will offer them up. But very interesting on the subtly differences. I also vaguely remember there was some slight difference on internal markings too.

    One interesting observation on the set I did for Willie, I was so focused on making them as pretty and perfect as they might have been when new. Now fast forward several years and miles and the "restoration pretty" is faded, etc. Was it worth the pretty effort or should have just done the mechanical and called it a day. But that’s just me, perfectionist.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2022
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  11. Aug 28, 2022
    jeeper50

    jeeper50 jeeps 'till I die

    Gawja
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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2022
  12. Aug 29, 2022
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    Yeah, I tend to doubt that anyone knows the answer for sure anymore, given how long it's been since these hubs were in production (53 years). All we can do is to look at whatever evidence we can find that exists today, and try to come up with a probable conclusion.

    I too am somewhat of a perfectionist, and did my best to restore this set of M2's accordingly. As far as retaining their looks, hopefully this set will hold up for awhile since I don't do any serious off-roading now, and keep the Jeep garaged when I'm not driving it.

    I should point out that for 50+ year old hubs, these were in very good shape at the time I bought them (from Mike Starck). After disassembling and thoroughly cleaning the parts, I repainted the black areas using 1/8” wide masking tape on the rings and flat black Testors model paint. To smooth and shine up the aluminum, I experimented with a technique I hadn't tried on hubs before, which was to use a 6” deburring wheel on a grinder. This worked great, and required minimal effort on my part. All the moving parts and bearings were then re-greased before reassembly and installation, using new O-rings, gaskets, bolts, and lockwashers. Here's how they turned out:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2022
  13. Aug 29, 2022
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Look good.
     
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  14. Sep 2, 2022
    maurywhurt

    maurywhurt Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Western North...
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    The above posts of Greevesman's I'm replying to are several years old at this point, but I thought this info might be helpful to others restoring Warn M2 or WL-2 locking hubs:


    I likewise wanted to find black bolts for my hubs, and eventually succeeded (photo in my post above). These 3/8-16 x 2-1/2" Grade 8 black bolts are currently available on eBay, though it takes three sets in order to have enough for two hubs:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/143647118327

    Similar bolts are available at McMaster Carr, but at a higher price.


    I initially bought a set of stainless Warn lockwashers on eBay, which turned out to be over 70 thousandths thick. After hearing about the issues with front wheel removal, I later found the set on Walcks' site. I called and confirmed with them that these lockwashers are thin enough to allow wheel removal, and bought a set. At a bit over 50 thousandths thick, these are indeed a good bit thinner than the ones I got on eBay:

    https://walcks4wd.com/Lock-Out-Hub-Lock-Washer-Kit-Warn-Hub-Only_p_1826.html

    While I've not tried to actually take a front wheel off yet after installing them, it does appear that the bent-over tabs on the Walcks lockwashers won't interfere with removal.


    Other parts I used were the special inner and outer replacement O-rings for Warn hub selector dials that mickeykelley located:

    https://torqueking.com/product/30075/qu30075-warn-hub-and-gm-np205-input-coupling-o-ring/
    https://torqueking.com/product/15095/tk15095-vintage-hub-o-ring/

    ...and replacement gaskets:

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/182505895226
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/154328123773
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2022
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  15. Sep 2, 2022
    mickeykelley

    mickeykelley Well-Known Member

    Republic of Texas
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    Just as an update, Walcks we’re originally too thick too. Someone else mentioned it so I check the ones I got from them and compared them with some originals I had and sure enough too thick. I reported this to Carl and he recognized they were wrong, got them corrected and sent out replacements. That was several years ago.
     
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