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1959 Corvette 283 FI

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by Pappabear1973, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. Apr 10, 2018
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Hey it's your jeep to do what you want with but are you sure about what it is you're aiming for with it? With a small 8 & for road only use you really don't need a 4 speed- you'll never ever use first & you'll hardly ever use second. 70 in an ECJ5 can be done but it's widely considered Not To Be a Good Thing to Do- with the short wheelbase & high center of gravity handling can be squirrely, if running a lift or off-road tuned suspension it gets worser faster.

    And you'll certainly need a brake upgrade.

    As stated you will need to change out the steering gear- with a saddle mount engine that could become very involved. If you don't go for the 3 series axles you'll find that the engine RPMs will make for a loud ride, that's ok if you're going short distances but if you're commuting any distance at all it gets old quick :(

    Not trying to knock your vision :schooled: but some of what you seem to be going for just isn't adding up.:shrug:
     
    Alan28 likes this.
  2. Apr 10, 2018
    gunner

    gunner Member

    Washington state...
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    I'm familiar with the bellhousing- I have 3 of them in the garage (eg, "so, I only want the forged clutch fork". "Sorry, you have to take the bellhousing as well". Etc). But the question remains- will you then have 3 mounting points? Seems you need to support the transfer case and that would make for the third mounting point. We aren't talking a 2 wheel drive Chevy here. I have had a couple early 60s GMC trucks and yes, they suspended the trannies out from the bellhousings. Now if you are talking a divorced TC, then I can see the need for 3 mounting points, but a married trans/TC would have to be supported. I say all this because I read years ago that having 3 mounting points caused problems. I believe it was in relation to the early Chevy truck guys putting T5s in (mostly for the OD) and debating if the rear bellhousing mounting points should be used along with the mounting point found on the T5 tailshaft.

    In other news, seems the original poster is gathering up various parts and on his way to finding out some truths the hard way. Asked-for advice is going pretty much unheeded. The Rockwell case is big- I had one in a 62 GMC 3/4 ton. Lousy gear reduction. Pretty poor choice in a jeep. The SM465 is also a poor choice- in a street driven jeep. A T15 would have been better along with a D18 or D20 depending on if your rear diff is centered or offset. Corvette engine, SM465, Rockwell 221? Just not seeing it.
     
  3. Apr 10, 2018
    Pappabear1973

    Pappabear1973 New Member

    Canandaigua ny
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    I have not bought anything yet so I’m not gathering yet although I am looking at the 283 on Sunday. I just looking around trying to get prices and ideas. I keep getting conflicting information on different sites what sites that said this transfer cases crap Kelly wants is this the same transfer case is one of the best out there once so I will tell me that this transmission is too weak to go behind a V-8. Another one tell me that it’s a good choice to go behind a V-8. That’s why gave your asking some questions but if you go through some of the posts not everybody agrees on everything on this post either. That’s why I’m trying to read and search and ask questions. I read a lot about the SM more 65 being very good transmission. So I did a quick search and I found the start up fairly close to me the surprise. That’s why I’m asking year if it’s a good choice or not I’m getting that it’s not a good choice for my application. So you guys are doing your part for me. Thank you
     
  4. Apr 10, 2018
    Pappabear1973

    Pappabear1973 New Member

    Canandaigua ny
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    As far as the transmissions go. I was under the assumption that the four-speed to give you an estimate in overdrive as compared to the three speed. Therefore making it easier and lower RPMs higher speeds. Am I mistaken on this?
     
  5. Apr 10, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    No. 4th is still 1:1 on almost every transmission. Everything you have thrown out has been discussed dozens of times. A couple simple searches will yield you more information. It all boils down to what you want to do with YOUR Jeep. What works well for one type of driving won't work at all for another. Most of the guys on this forum prefer bone stock all original stuff so they are going to give an entirely different answer then most other wheeling centered sites.
     
    Pappabear1973 likes this.
  6. Apr 10, 2018
    tarry99

    tarry99 Member

    Northern California
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    John...........I was just replying to how the original 265 / 283 block was mounted...........stretching the mounts from the timing cover to the tranny or transfer case would obviously be a long distance only using 2 locations......with some intelligent use of some modern urethane mounts a third mount would work...........but the motor and trans assembly would have to me mounted in a rigid enough environment frame wise to keep it all together.
     
  7. Apr 10, 2018
    Mark Wahlster

    Mark Wahlster Member

    Silverton, OR
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    I'm curious you say you want to build this block back into the engine it was originally (if it was a 59 FI 283) then I have a question. DO you have any clue how expensive a working Rochester FI unit is? Also that was a solid lifter cam and ran 11.25-1 compression so you won't be running pump gas. 94 octane at the very minimum and 96 is better.

    IMHO you would be better off with something like a mid 60's 220HP 283 from a Nova/Chevelle Little power pack heads hydraulic lifters little Carter AFB 4 bbl carb. Like the one I have sitting here on an engine stand with 18K since it was rebuilt.
     
  8. Apr 10, 2018
    Mark Wahlster

    Mark Wahlster Member

    Silverton, OR
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    Daryl an exception to this is the 1977ish RUG 4 speed Ford used in the Granada and Merc Monarch it has a 18% OD in the fourth position and a real nice low first gear ratio 3.07-1 can be adapted to a GM engine pretty easy. The one that came in the car uses a Hurst style shift linkage ($$$$) there was also a Pickup version with a centered integral shifter (I know squat about those) WE had one of the Car RUGS in the wifes 67 Mustang. 200L6 RUG 4spd 3.20 rear and it got 26mpg commuting.
     
  9. Apr 10, 2018
    Alan28

    Alan28 Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Châtillon en...
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    Dear Sir,
    I am reading this post with interest, and because I dont' understand technical english, I am a little bit worried for your safety.
    I have a good 4 cyl Hurricane, works well.
    If I wanted more fun, I would be happy with a more powerful engine, to make nice accelerations.
    But I won't try to drive fast, this is not possible with CJ5! Or invest in airbags all-over you.:clap:
    I have fun with my Audi when the highway gate opens, 20 cars are launched quite at the same time and I pass through them avoiding the danger ones, when I arrive at 100 mph I stop the game, risk is not for me (and I don't look for fines).
    When I was younger long ago it was on a powerful motorcycle, being first; This is stupid, I know, but I am just a man.
    With my CJ5, it is funny to push the right pedal, the music makes people turn head, but speed must be limited.

    What would be funny for you is to have powerful engine, good clutch and short rations to make good musical starts.

    I remember that one day with my Audi, not the most powerful but the V6 has a good music with high rpm, I started at the exit of the highway, policemen were there controling, I pressed the pedal strongly, nice roaring and the patrolmen jumped to look at what happened. Was not a Ferrari but was correct.
    I know, stupid.
     
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  10. Apr 10, 2018
    47v6

    47v6 junk wrecker! 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    USA
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    If I had to spend money on a core...That was somewhat oddball.. To rebuild.. I wouldn't.

    My criteria to build a jeep is easy parts procurement. Either I have it or i can get it relatively cheap and easy. It also MUST have good power brakes and power steering.

    Chevy 4.3 FI from craigslist that runs for under 600 bucks. Bolt that to a SM465 or any automatic that will fit.

    The build will be complex, why make it even more so with oddball antique stuff? It doesn't make it easier or simpler, just more expensive and irritating. The idea of "Corvette" stuff is neat, but will that make it more fun to drive?... if you get stalled on one off parts, maybe you wont get to drive it at all.

    I went as simple as I could with my build and I just drove it around.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  11. Apr 10, 2018
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

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    This




    I been watching this tread . yes it's your jeep and you can do what ever you like .
    but sometimes it like throwing money into a hole
    I see no reason why you want to use a old block to start with . plenty of V8's in junk yards or CL
    now if your going for fast on highway . use a OD automatic .
    due to length of engine and auto . plus the short WB of a early
    might add a later model grill shell in mix of parts
     
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  12. Apr 10, 2018
    jeepstar

    jeepstar Well-Known Member 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Sheboygan
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    Look for an early 90's 4.3 near you. Thats a pretty well rounded motor for most any jeep applications. Gm motor will bolt up to many different transmissions. Parts are readily available on the shelf of most auto part stores
     
  13. Apr 10, 2018
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Super Moderator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    What are or are not good pieces depends heavily on the end use.

    Some truths that have become self evident from having spent a number of years here:

    Be clear on your intended end use- what works well for a rock crawler ain't gonna work well for a dune runner. Know where you want to end up & select pieces based on that.

    Just because you have a (engine/tranny/xfercase/axle) handy does not mean using that (engine/tranny/xfercase/axle) is a good idea.

    Beware Project Creep- far too many folks have started in on a build that never gets finished because one thing leads to another to another to another...

    These things are jeeps- they are compromise vehicles and as such do not perform optimally as any other kind of vehicle- they make lousy high speed commuters, cargo haulers, hot rods or slalom racers. Per the intended use statement if optimized for one function they become compromised even more for any other.

    Pay no attention to other jeep sites for ECJ5 stuff (unless they're the 2A/3A/3B boards). ESPECIALLY DO NOT GO TO PIRATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     
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  14. Apr 10, 2018
    Daryl

    Daryl Sponsor

    Bonney Lake, WA
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    You missed the "almost every"
    Ford parts rarely if ever should be use on an old Jeep. :D
     
  15. Apr 10, 2018
    dozerjim

    dozerjim Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    western New York
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    Howard has said it all...the people here have more real world sense than all other sites.Ecj-5 is a fun machine in its own right,not a daily commuter especialy in winter,I took a jeep for money owed me with a 304 and 4speed,cleaned it up and down the road it went...very squirrely and unstable.Build what you want for fun and buy a something to commute with heat and a radio you can hear...sorry for the rant,carry on .
     
  16. Apr 10, 2018
    Danefraz

    Danefraz Well-Known Member 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Chico CA
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    I am going on 5 years of my 'resto-mod' - it all started with burnt wiring... and I feel like I may have it on the road this summer.

    prior to that it was a 225 v6 (odd fire)
    t-14 three speed transmission
    4.88 axles, rear tapered D-44 with power-loc limited slip, front D-27 was an open diff (passenger side offset)

    It will be:
    225 v6
    T-98/D-18
    4.88 d-44 rear / d-27 front w/ 11inch drum brakes (lockers came with this set of axles front and rear - I may switch back to power-locs)
    power steering
    the rest stays stock

    Everyone here has offered some EXCELLENT advise (all folks have to do is ask):
    - if possible, make it safe and drive it
    - stick to a plan, watch scope creep
    - get it running, then choose projects
    - and most importantly, read, re-read, and read more here and on the CJ3/CJ2 boards about mods you want to do, and their viability for your intended use.

    Folks here offering advise are very diverse in experience and fabricating skills. Knowing your limits, or taking the time and money to learn something new to stretch your limits are in your wheelhouse, make your decisions accordingly.

    Everyone here wants to see you riding in your jeep, with the pictures to prove it.

    Everyone here has an opinion, and some folks here have done some serious modification of these early jeeps, or done things out of necessity (such as build their own frames, etc.) or made money off of unfortunate souls that ended up with a stack of parts when they didn't / couldn't finish their projects (I am always looking for good deals myself).

    I don't recall seeing this in the previous 3 pages, but this is decent information from folks that try and make our lives easier by providing parts, adapters and free advise...

    Engine conversions specific to JEEPS. They offer some 'DONT DO THIS BECAUSE YOU HAVE IT' sensibilities.
    aka: because you have a 1970 Lincoln Dove 460 lying around, it may not be a good fit in an early CJ5
    Novak Conversions :: About

    For transmissions, they offer the same:
    Novak Conversions :: Manual

    As others are saying, there is only so much space between the frame rails and between the axles to jam this stuff in there.

    the 4.L v6 would be on my list if I needed another motor after this 225 v6 buick barfs.

    I looked at a T-18 / d-18 combo transmission and ended up with a t-98/d-18 combo (Same basic dimensions, just OLDER and harder to source 'hard' parts like gears for).

    the 283 GM block is just that - a core. If that's a vette engine, you'll need complete heads, different pistons, an intake, a carb, headers and new exhaust.

    Good bad or indifferent, my exhaust guy is guessing about $600 or so to bend, hang and route my new exhaust on the jeep as it is (the Novak 225 headers a member here co-designed that Sanderson Headers makes) - that's something I will pay to have done, I'd guess yours will be similar. I have no idea what a set of decent complete heads for your motor would run, I'd guess $800 or more. Add another ~$800 for a new carb and manifold plus machine work, pistons, engine rebuild kit, etc. and you're on the way to running past $2000 quickly and the transmission / transfer case have been ignored so far.

    I am not far off the 'standard' path on my build, and I'm out about $4000 for sandblasting, mostly parts and some labor (most I've done myself).

    If you're willing to go with an esoteric route, just be prepared that you can't do it quickly or cheaply, that you need to research and plan, and it will cost some coins and may require a lot of fabrication that is off the standard path. None of us hate seeing awesome fabrication. We like seeing projects make progress. We all really want to help.

    Free advise offered here. You don't have to buy it if it doesn't fit your vision.
     
    fhoehle, Rich M., 73 cj5 and 4 others like this.
  17. Apr 10, 2018
    Mark Wahlster

    Mark Wahlster Member

    Silverton, OR
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    nope I have excellent reading comprehension. I was giving one of those almosts just in case someone wanted to know. As to not using Ford parts on old jeeps..................pretty sure the GPW guys would raise a stink over that comment. And I have always though the 289/302 was a better choice with its front distributor then a SBC for a swap. But hey we all have different ideas.
     
  18. Apr 10, 2018
    Keys5a

    Keys5a Sponsor

    Florida Keys
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    Papabear, You said you want to use your Jeep as a "pavement pounder" you also want to put a 283 in it. I have had that engine in several Jeeps over nearly 40 years, and I like them. They are simple, and generally don't make enough torque to break stock Jeep components. Remember, these of Jeeps are light weight vehicles, so a Buick or Chevy V6 will make them really move. A V8 really is overkill. Most folks here use their Jeeps for offroad work, so they prefer the 4 spd truck transmissions with a compound "granny" first gear. On the road, these truck transmissions are used as a 3 spd. The stock T90 is more than adequate for what you say you are looking for, plus you likely already have one with the D18 transfer case on the back of it. My message is to keep thing as simple as you can.
    My personal favorite combination was my Tux CJ5 with a Buick 215 V8 with the stock T90/D18, and 4.27 gears. I broke the crank in my F134, so I needed a new engine. It was capable off road, and was a great daily driver on the road. I used to regularly take it on road trips up to a couple hundred miles, including the Interstate. The only real modification was I shoved the engine back about 5" for better traction and handling. Otherwise, this was just a simple engine swap, and it worked really well for my use, and it was scary fast on the street if I wanted it to be.
    As mentioned several times, the V6 engines really work well in a CJ5, and could even be had that way from the factory. This would be the simplest, likely cheapest and easiest conversion, and it really works well. Think about what your looking to get in to.
    -Donny
     
  19. Apr 11, 2018
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    Both of those transmissions are getting damn hard to find and damn near impossible to get parts for. Herm has them from time to time but even his supply is drying up. Plus adapting to a usable transfer case is expensive. I had one I was going to use in a project that needed a cluster gear. Every supplier I tried for a used one laughed at me. And these were suppliers I've used for twenty plus years in the industry. NOS ones could be had. If you want to spend $400 plus just for the gear.
    And 3.07-1 is really not a good low first gear except for purely street use. That's about equivalent to a T-90.
     
  20. Apr 11, 2018
    timgr

    timgr We stand on the shoulders of giants. 2022 Sponsor 2021 Sponsor 2020 Sponsor

    Medford Mass USA
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    Just an unbiased comment - it's great if you want to do all these upgrades for the fun of it. I would point out that starting with a few years newer Jeep will provide most of the upgrades that you are considering. In 1972, Jeep incorporated most of the favorite upgrades of Jeepers in the new models - V8 engine, Saginaw steering, better brakes, Dana 30 open knuckle front axle, better heater, stronger transmissions, more highway-friendly gear ratios and others I'm sure I'm missing. The more you start out with, the less the eventual cost will be - even if the initial cost is higher.

    The six cylinder engines that Jeep used were great, both the 225 V6 and the 232 or 258 AMC 6s. Durable, reliable, and plenty of power in this chassis for most owners.

    Also, a 4.3L Chevy V6 with carburetor, TBI or MPI would seem a much better choice to me than a potentially rare/desirable Chevy V8. Cheap, plentiful, and a better fit to the short CJ-5 engine compartment. Many Chevy V8 conversions have been done to these Jeeps, but I suspect most were originally swapped back when the V6s were rare or non-existent. Today, the V6s are much more popular because of the engine compartment size. If you want more power, there are plenty of go-fast parts for the 4.3L. Realize that 4.3L is 262 cid, so not that different from a 283. And the modern engines make way way more power per displacement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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