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MD Juan Tub Kit 1969 CJ5 4CLY (7/2016)

Discussion in 'Builds and Fabricators Forum' started by Wirework, Jul 10, 2016.

  1. May 13, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    Yep. While I was talking about how to approach the problem, Joe went home, dropped the transmission/transfer case, and found the disk in backwards and the pilot bearing was shot. I didn't even know he was going to go in the garage. He just sent me a text and said "Look."

    [​IMG]

    Joe is what you call "a man of action"...

    While it's open (again) we are replacing everything clutch related... no more clutch problems, please.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
    dozerjim likes this.
  2. May 16, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    We picked up a second cj5 F134 clutch kit from AutoZone today (the first kit on Monday was missing a pilot bushing; they got the replacement in this morning). But after installing the pilot bushing and throw out bearing we went to install the pressure plate and friction plate and realized they were completely different. Our Jeep has a 9.25" diameter friction plate with 6 springs and a heavy pressure plate assembly which has 6 evenly spaced bolts attaching it to the flywheel. The replacement friction disk was 8.5", had four springs, and it's 6 pressure plate bolts attached in a "Y" pattern, two bolts on each leg. We couldn't use it.

    So, we put our original friction plate and pressure plate back in with the new pilot bushing and new throw out bearing, (this time with the raised side of the friction plate facing away from the flywheel!!), but after several clutch cable length adjustments it continued to grind when trying to get into gear. We could not get the transmission into any gear... it worked better when the friction plate was in backwards...:(

    I took the "wrong" clutch kit back to AutoZone this evening and learned that they list a clutch assembly matching ours... but it is no longer available. So we have to replace the pilot bushing and throw out bearing and return the "wrong" kit to get a refund. So I ordered a new 9.25" kit from Summit.

    We learned after a few assembly attempts that the best way to do a clutch change is to drop the bell housing, transmission, and transfer case as a single unit using a motorcycle lift and appropriate wood blocks for support. The throw out bearing spring holds the fork in place inside the bell housing. Dropping it all as a single piece saves a lot of disassembly assembly. Yes, the Jeep was at the max height the jack stands safely supported.
     
  3. May 17, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    We pulled the floor panels and removed the bell housing vent cover to get a clear look inside at the operating clutch parts. We confirmed that the internal fork travel is not impeded and our last clutch cable adjustment pulled the fork to within 3/16" of the bell housing with the pedal all the way down. The throw out collar properly engages the three arms of the pressure plate assembly and they are all an equal distance from the pressure plate. But we could not confirm that the 3 arm's movement is or is not sufficient to release the friction plate... other than knowing by prior trial that it has not.

    Not finding any obvious assembly issue, we pulled the bell housing/transmission/transfer case off the flywheel, and exposed the clutch parts. A new clutch kit is on order... I guess we will see what we see when we compare new with the old.
     
  4. May 17, 2017
    Chuck W.

    Chuck W. New Member

    AL
    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2017
    Messages:
    15
    I like to pull the engine and leave the bell housing, transmission and transfer case in the jeep. I find it much easier in the long run and almost all of the work can be done from the top, plus you can install the throwout bearing, fork, return spring and cable and test the operation and travel before installing the engine/clutch assembly.
     
  5. May 18, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    Hey, Chuck. Thanks. We debated that between us, but it seemed we'd need to pull the radiator, grill, etc... the other way, we had the tranny out and on the floor in 2 hours, (the second time). That said, engine out has a lot going for it.
     
  6. May 18, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    542
    Between us, we traded a few ideas about why the clutch might not be disengaging the transmission...

    How about pilot bearing too small? We did have a tough time getting the last 1/4" of engagement.

    Or maybe we deformed the friction plate when we put it in backwards. The shock springs in the friction plate did hit up against the flywheel and we're scarred.

    Anyway, I thought it might be fun to post our best guess before the new parts arrive and then see how well we guessed.
     
  7. May 18, 2017
    Chuck W.

    Chuck W. New Member

    AL
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    Apr 6, 2017
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    That would be my guess. Be sure to carefully inspect the fork and pivot ball.
     
    Claunchj likes this.
  8. May 18, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    542
    Thanks, we did check the fork and the pivot ball is new. The new kit will give us a new fork.
     
  9. May 18, 2017
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    I am all for installing bell on transmission first . less chance of knocking throw out bearing off fork
    I use my floor jack with a specially made plate for my set up . a T 18 is a huge transmission
    and before I put top back on trans . I always try to rotate input gear when adjusting clutch
    I do wonder if your problem isn't the pilot bushing
     
  10. May 19, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    542
    Are you saying, that you rotate the input gear by hand, or have you created a tool to rotate it? Thanks.
     
  11. May 19, 2017
    Twin2

    Twin2 not him 2024 Sponsor 2023 Sponsor 2022 Sponsor

    Virginia Beach, VA
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    by hand . if it turns your good to go . you step on clutch pedal and reach in
     
  12. May 19, 2017
    dozerjim

    dozerjim Member

    western New York
    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
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    x2
     
  13. May 19, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    Just pulled the old correctly installed friction and pressure plate. Nothing obviously wrong. The already installed pilot bearing was the same as the new one (0.628" I think). I felt the inside surface; it seemed smooth so I left it in there.

    The AutoZone supplied tool was 0.603", it wobbled a bit in the pilot hole. So, this time I was careful to cock it slightly to try and split its 0.025" gap in both directions. Having that tool sit in the bottom of the pilot hole would drop the friction plate spline too low and may have contributed to the tight pilot shaft insertion the first time.

    I installed the new 9.25" friction plate and pressure plate using proper bolting technique. But when I lifted the transmission, etc, I realized I'd set up the jeep to high; the motorcycle jack couldn't lift high enough. It was late; people live upstairs, I called it a night.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  14. May 20, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
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    542
    The original pilot bushing had worn to about 0.660" ID. If I remember correctly, the replacement (and the second replacement) was about 0.628"; I think about 0.010" larger than the shaft (I wish I had witten it all down, duh.)

    Anyway, with an in spec pilot bushing, we should be able to rule that out.

    Then again...maybe there is a reason the old busing was at 0.660"... we could have a bent input shaft... hmmm... how to check the runout of an installed input shaft??? I think we just assemble it with the new friction plate and pressure plate and cross our fingers.

    Funny, the new friction plate looks maybe a bit thinner than the old one(!). Too late to actually measure it.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  15. May 20, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    542
    I screwed up and packed some wheel bearing grease into the tiny gap in my throw out bearing before reading the FSM, "never pack grease in the pre lubricated throw out bearing".. it didn't take much. It was really rough and noisy until I did that... now it runs smooth and quiet.

    Has anyone else done that? Did the grease cause a problem?

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2017
  16. May 21, 2017
    Alan F

    Alan F Sponsor

    SE TX
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    The clutch is designed to work in a relevant range of motion. If it were me, I'd measure that range on the release bearing arm, then make sure the linkage works in that range. I've not done it on a Jeep so can't provide any specifics. But the travel of the pressure plate and height of the release bearing are fixed. If correct that leaves the linkage. I would first suspect the height of the release bearing fulcrum (pivot, which in some cars is adjustable) then the release bearing arm, which can get bent. Then the placement of crosshaft tabs and their interaction with all that mechanical linkage. If you can't get it adjusted within the range, it tells me another piece of the linkage geometry is off. You've just got to get the linkage working in the right range of motion.
     
  17. May 21, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
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    542
    Thanks, Alan.
    The pivot ball (on its threaded stem) is new, the lever arm is new, the bearing collar is new, the cluch release (throw out) bearing is new... everything clutch related is new. I compared them with the 'old' and found wear in all the expected places (contact points). Otherwise I couldn't see any dimensional differences, flatness differences, etc. The funny thing is, the clutch would disengage the tranny when the friction plate was in backwards, but not after we turned it around.

    The threaded pivot ball stem looks as if it gets seated into the bell housing, so no adjustment there.

    There is a rotating pipe ("cross shaft tabs" ?), with opposing lobes, which reverses the direction of the clutch pedal push. The two opposite lobes differ in length by about 1/8". We"ll attach the clutch cable to the long lobe to provide the most response and motion to the clutch.

    I'm hoping the old friction plate or pressure plate was damaged (even though I can't tell).

    I bought a dial indicator at HF (Harbor Freight) today ($35) so I can check input shaft run out tomorrow. (Monday).

    This is our last shot to get running for my daughters wedding next Sunday. We thought we'd be done in March (April, latest)... :(
     
  18. May 22, 2017
    Wirework

    Wirework Navy_Jim

    Pittsburgh, PA
    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2016
    Messages:
    542
    Look what followed me home from Joe's today...

    [​IMG]

    Wohoo!!

    Joe was ready to go when I arrived today, so I figured "try it" without measuring input shaft run out.

    The thing that made the biggest difference was removing the under floor spring on the clutch pedal shaft. The original was long gone and my replacement spring was too stiff/too tall. It ate up spme of the pedal travel.

    Omix-Ada clutch cable arrived. Threads didn't match any US or Metric thread size or thread pitch... we got the the 4 closest nuts, Metric/US, fine/ course... nada. Then we checked it with the thread gage from the tap and die kit... none of the thread series matched. We put the old one in.

    As hoped, cocking the pilot alignment tool earlier up/down - right/left (to try to better center the pilot hole in the friction plate spline hole) made a big difference getting the input shaft easily inserted and the engine/ bell housing together.

    After a few tries adjusting the clutch cable, we got it to work. Oddly, we had to adjust it so the throw out bearing was touching the pressure plate fingers, with the clutch pedal all the way up, to get enough cable travel to engage the clutch when the pedal was depressed all the way down...

    Road test...
    We had to adjust the timing... no power on hills.

    We are unable to get a fairly significant bit of slop out of the steering. It all seems to be coming from the steering box. We can adjust all the slop out of it, but then the steering is really too tight to drive it. So, we got some of the slop out, realigned the front wheels, and it became safe enough to drive home (about 20 mi.). Shop alignment tomorrow or Wednesday.

    Fuel gage died. Coolant temp gage never worked.

    Military tires are really noisy!

    Brakes are really slow!

    I keep forgetting to cancel the turn signal...

    Other than that...
    I wish I had dressed better... 'got a LOT of looks and several stop light conversations... and a few raised eyebrows from the constabltory.

    I hit 50 mph on a flat straightaway and had not topped out... 'TOOK A Long Time To Get there. I could accelerate up hills while in the 40's in 3rd gear.

    Driving it is really demanding. Hopefully we'll figure out the steering problem.

    But... it is ready for the wedding on Sunday... the goal we set 14 months ago! Whew... we cut it close!

    We'll see you again when we get to the trailer, and for the canvas top and maybe to sell a few parts. (I promised a few already).

    Otherwise... thanks for all the encouragement and help.

    Pontiac, here we come!

    10/28/2021 Update:
    Here's how the Pontiac turned out:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2021
    Danefraz, Twin2 and ojgrsoi like this.
  19. May 23, 2017
    Focker

    Focker That's a terrible idea...What time? Staff Member

    WA
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    Nice work gentleman...It looks great!
     
  20. Jun 6, 2017
    Johns1967CJ5

    Johns1967CJ5 Sponsor

    Northern NJ
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    Very nice
     
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