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Points vs. Pertronix

Discussion in 'Early CJ5 and CJ6 Tech' started by wsknettl, Jan 10, 2012.

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  1. Jan 18, 2012
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    OK folks, FYI the distributor I'm looking is a F4 IAD 4041 or IAD 4008A that shows more than .005" shaft wobble.

    Seems to me Tonk's is closer to 1/8" so I may be good on this, I'll let you know. :)
     
  2. Jan 18, 2012
    Petesponies

    Petesponies Banned

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    I have been an automotive teacher as well as an electronic teacher for many years. I taught Engieering through the Project Lead the Way program as well. I was a metals teacher as well as a CAD/Architecture teacher. I've been around the block in subjects, but Automotive was my favorite. I am now retired and do automotive restoration only.
    Now to the Pertronix . . When you install a Pertronix ignition according to the suggestions of the manufacturing company . . you eliminate the resistance wire which usually cares current to the primary system of a points type ignition. You run you own 12V ( hell Howard, it's really about 14V when the alternator is running isn't it? ) directly to the igniter. You cannot do this with points as the condenser, try as they can, cannot stop the degrading of the point contacts when higher than 9V is present. That is why 6-9V is usually sent to the primary ignition system. One of the advantages of running an electronic ignition is being able to take full advantage of the 12-14v available. I have sold and installed many of these Pertronix systems to customers. In every situation, not some, you immediately saw real world changes as soon as you turned the key. A properly setup and points system could do almost as much and make the real world difference mighty close, but as I stated before, the degrading starts immediately and never ends. What an electronic ignition can do is keep the output level flat over its life and never need any adjustment. This is in addition to having the ability of supplying more voltage even with the same coil.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2012
  3. Jan 18, 2012
    Petesponies

    Petesponies Banned

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    this can be done with some automobiles and not with others. For example, Ford uses a resistance wire. Therefore you must bypass the entire wire, there is nothing to remove. However, the same result happens, you get a full 12-14V to the unit. Now I will say this, if you do not send full voltage to the unit, it still works. So many times I have installed them in this manor, depending on what the customer wanted. They work either way, but create more voltage output when a full voltage source is used.
     
  4. Jan 18, 2012
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    I don't believe so, but we'll see when I do the tests.

    As for the resister/resistance wire I'll go with what's indicated in the material currently available to me, which is the link I provided earlier.

    H.
     
  5. Jan 18, 2012
    Farmer Mike

    Farmer Mike Member

    Butte City, Ca
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    The way I read that diagram from pertronix is you have 12v no ballast resister, for figure 2, hooked the the positive side of the coil. Possibly internally resisted coil. Fig 3 shows 12v to the pertronix ignitor and a ballast tapped off of that going to the coil. Obviously externally resisted. I see one of the no start tips is "The position in which the Ignitor red wire is attached to is not supplying sufficient voltage"

    Had to edit this:

    How would it increase voltage when all you are doing is telling the coil when to fire? The coil will only store so much energy and the only way to increase is using a higher output coil. Removing the ballast on an externally resisted coil will only shorten the life of that coil.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2012
  6. Jan 18, 2012
    Corveeper

    Corveeper Member

    Chanute, Kansas
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    The ballast resistor is there to protect the coil so if the coil needed a ballast resistor before a Pertronix Ignitor was installed it will need one after.
    Only device I've ever heard of that eliminates the need for a ballast resistor of some sort is a CDI box.
     
  7. Jan 18, 2012
    chuck123wapati

    chuck123wapati Member

    wyoming
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    yup my instructions said to bypass the ballast resistor.
     
  8. Jan 18, 2012
    chuck123wapati

    chuck123wapati Member

    wyoming
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    I'll see later if I can dig out my pertronix if someone wants it, it wouldn't work in my distributor.
     
  9. Jan 18, 2012
    69Willys

    69Willys Las Vegas, NV

    Las Vegas, NV
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    Chuck, if you find it, PM me with a price...
     
  10. Jan 18, 2012
    Petesponies

    Petesponies Banned

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  11. Jan 18, 2012
    wsknettl

    wsknettl cuz

    NW Wisconsin
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    Pete is correct. The resistor in 12 volt systems was added because the capacity of the switching system (mechanical contacts or points) was not able to handle anything higher. The change in dwell that the Pertronix Engineering folks mention creates the longer time for the coil to be able to charge and become capable of discharging at much higher voltages. Of course this is reserve power and is usually much higher than the actual voltages used by the spark plugs in a stock F134. Now due to the initial over response of some folks to my original post I want to reiterate I have never said the Pertronix was not a good thing. I have insisted that when we try to sell it we be honest about real world performance gains. These are gains at the tire and the only engine I and the original poster were referring to was the F134. In this F134 application the real measurable gains are not in HP and fuel economy at the rear wheels. They are in maintainability and long term survival of the unit. Yes there is an improvement in startability when compared to the less then new mechanical points. Yes the points will age ("degrade") over time and yes they can be a real PITA to maintain, but if you consider the switch, balance your needs and how you intend to use this very low power, low RPM , low compression engine with the cost of the Pertronix.

    Howard, being the great sport he is, has committed to undertake this test or search for any measurable increase in HP or fuel economy at the rear wheels of a stock CJ5 with an F134. Not a higher compression, larger displacement, higher horsepower replacement engine which we have heard so much about in this thread but just a bone stock CJ5 with a bone stock F134 which is what the original poster asked about.

    Rather then badger and ridicule him during his attempt to sort this out why not offer the assistance he has requested and use a wait and see mind set until he has finished?
     
  12. Jan 18, 2012
    nickmil

    nickmil In mothballs.

    Happy Valley, OR
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    I'm locking this thread. It's deteriorated into a personal issue and not about the subject matter. It has come close before by other moderators but now is getting out of hand. When I walked away from this thread I asked people to be respectful. That's not happening and regardless whether we agree or not this site is about a common interest, Jeeps, especially early's.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2012
  13. Jan 19, 2012
    Howard Eisenhauer

    Howard Eisenhauer Administrator Staff Member

    Tantallon, Nova...
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    Unfortunately things have come to this & I support Nicks call on it.

    Please let this act as a reminder to all to abide by the rules.

    Apart from that I'm still looking for a worn out distributor & points so if anybody has'em let me know.

    H.
     
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